voltairzap
Member
- Location
- Sonoma CA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
There is a bonding bushing at the load center side and a service hub at the meter socket enclosure.
Field made conduit entry into load center
- Thread starter voltairzap
- Start date
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician
Isn't that section applicable for the wire bending space at the terminal not where the conduit enters the enclosure?
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician
So what's the issue?
voltairzap
Member
- Location
- Sonoma CA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Good solution that we have performed in the past, but not this time.
voltairzap
Member
- Location
- Sonoma CA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Wire bend radius is not an issue here.
voltairzap
Member
- Location
- Sonoma CA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
My question exactly. As AHJ the inspector should be able to make a determination on the installation.
I would like to find a Code section that addresses field cut penetrations, so the inspector can move forward on this.
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician
You won't find any applicable NEC section to your original question which is can you make your own KOs in a cabinet. The answer is yes because there is no prohibition in the NEC if you want to make your own KOs.
electrofelon
Senior Member
- Location
- Cherry Valley NY, Seattle, WA
As I said, I think 110.2 would be the code section he could cite. Many would say 110.3(b) manufacturers instructions, but they would have to say you CANNOT drill new KO's, they don't have to GIVE YOU PERMISSION to cut new KO's.
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician
I would love to manufacturers instructions for a panel that say you cannot punch your own KO's.
- Location
- San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
- Occupation
- Electrical Engineer
This is not the first time this has come up here:
Conclusions are the same, I'm just pointing out that this issue with AHJs is not unheard of. I have had similar discussions with a couple of AHJs regarding punching holes in ANY enclosure, as to it "violating the UL listing of the enclosure". UL had available, at one time, a response letter that explained that once a hole is made, whatever goes INTO that hole must have the same or HIGHER level of environmental protection as the original enclosure rating (I can't find that any longer). So if a panel is rated for indoor use, i.e. Type 1, then pretty much any penetration that restores that to Type 1 is fine. Now IF the panel is outdoors, Type 3R, then any penetration must use a "Wet Location" rated connection method, i.e. Myers Hub for example. That is actually codified in 312.2, and repeated specifically FOR PANELBOARDS in 408.16. So if this was a 3R panel, punching a hole and not using a conduit connector method equal to or greater than the enclosure rating might be an issue.
Punching holes in panels voids the UL listing ??
Recently our local authority having jurisdiction has indicated that they will not pass any installation where we have put our own knock out in a panel if it has factory knockouts. In other words any panel that has KO's on the bottom cannot be entered from any side or the top by punching a new...
forums.mikeholt.com
Conclusions are the same, I'm just pointing out that this issue with AHJs is not unheard of. I have had similar discussions with a couple of AHJs regarding punching holes in ANY enclosure, as to it "violating the UL listing of the enclosure". UL had available, at one time, a response letter that explained that once a hole is made, whatever goes INTO that hole must have the same or HIGHER level of environmental protection as the original enclosure rating (I can't find that any longer). So if a panel is rated for indoor use, i.e. Type 1, then pretty much any penetration that restores that to Type 1 is fine. Now IF the panel is outdoors, Type 3R, then any penetration must use a "Wet Location" rated connection method, i.e. Myers Hub for example. That is actually codified in 312.2, and repeated specifically FOR PANELBOARDS in 408.16. So if this was a 3R panel, punching a hole and not using a conduit connector method equal to or greater than the enclosure rating might be an issue.
electrofelon
Senior Member
- Location
- Cherry Valley NY, Seattle, WA
Right I'm not saying there is, just pointing out the flawed logic that often gets applied.
voltairzap
Member
- Location
- Sonoma CA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
So, there is no definitive directive for guidance for the AHJ for field cut KOs?
voltairzap
Member
- Location
- Sonoma CA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
So, there is no definitive directive for guidance for the AHJ for field cut KOs?
- Location
- San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
- Occupation
- Electrical Engineer
Well, it's kind of the other way around. There is nothing saying you cannot punch holes in the field. If we all waited to find things in the NEC saying what we COULD do, the world would come to a grinding halt...
electrofelon
Senior Member
- Location
- Cherry Valley NY, Seattle, WA
What Jraef said. You don't need permission to punch KO's. There are certainly requirements in the NEC (that vary a little bit depending on if we were talking about an article 312, 314, or 376 item) that might require fittings rated for wet locations. I am assuming this inspector is thinking something along the lines of " if it comes with factory Kos then you can only use those Kos they provide". There is nothing in the NEC or in any manufacturers instructions I have ever seen that states that. As I said before, the only possible thing he could cite is 110.2 just saying that he does not find it acceptable, in which place he is clearly an idiot, has no business being in his position, is wasting everyone's time on silly things when there are much more important things he could be focusing on, and should be fired immediately.
SceneryDriver
Senior Member
- Location
- NJ
- Occupation
- Electrical and Automation Designer
electrofelon
Senior Member
- Location
- Cherry Valley NY, Seattle, WA
I would be happy too, It's just facts. What could he possibly disagree about?
- Occupation
- Licensed Electrician
As I understand it a piece of equipment like a panel board or load center is listed as it is when it comes from the factory so even if you knock out a pre-formed ko instead of making your own hole you are "violating" the listing.
wwhitney
Senior Member
- Location
- Berkeley, CA
- Occupation
- Retired
I though the listing doesn't include the enclosure and just covers the guts.
Cheers, Wayne
- Occupation
- Licensed Electrician
You may be correct. I don't know and I won't spend the energy to find out until I have my own battle to fight. I don't spend too much time worrying about UL listings and when people start telling me I shouldn't do something because it will "violate the UL listing" I put them in the mental file of people who don't know what they are talking about.