File for a code variance?

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tallguy said:
Eureka! That's the one I was referring to in my post... Who makes it??
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Google "pop-up outlets" and you will find a couple of similar items.
 
electricmanscott said:
What is up with this statement. I hear it all the time.
Is it supposed to garner sympathy from people because it's "For the children"? I Still don't think not having those outlets is a big deal.

Put the book down and think about it with out the NEC clouding your view.
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No , It means that I don't like the pressure of violating the code comming from those charged with up holding it , in front of the H.O. no less .I do need to feed the Kids , that is a fact nothing more ,..so in this case I will knowingly violate the code , which I don't like to do,. because I can't afford to loose this job, another fact .

In Mass the Inspector of wires is not the AHJ and has limited liability . I recognize this is not the end of the world and I am willing to take the risk as it is unlikely to pose a problem of severe consequence , if it does however , no one but myself will remember how generous the O'le inspector was.

Scott the title of this post it board is National Electric Code I'll keep it open if you don't mind.
 
acrwc10 said:
Google "pop-up outlets" and you will find a couple of similar items.
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Stupid me... I had googled "pop-up receptacles". Even so, the image you provided was from a kitchen designer.

I searched quite a bit and couldn't find an actual source for anything other than products that are clearly designed for corporate/educational environments rather than kitchens and other nicely finished areas.
 
tallguy said:
Eureka! That's the one I was referring to in my post... Who makes it??
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I don't think it would meet the requirement it is listed as a power tap
 
M. D. said:
Scott the title of this post it board is National Electric Code I'll keep it open if you don't mind.
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Why bother if you are just gojng to ignore it anyway? :wink:


You totally missed my point. That point being the NEC read word for word does not leave much room for certain situations that arise in the field. You see m tounderstand what I am getting at.

So if you (and I don't mean you personally) put the book aside and use common sense and logic it is clear that just because you violate a certain section you have not actually created a hazard.
 
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?Put the book down and think about it with out the NEC clouding your view.?

This could be a problem

You may have a different views based on different experiences and we think is an acceptable measure of safety.

That?s why we need inspectors, so that we have the same measure of safety for everyone based on the NEC as a minimum safety standard.
 
electricmanscott said:
Why bother if you are just gojng to ignore it anyway?
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It is a sin , under the circumstances, that I am willing to commit and take responsibility for.
 
Nevermind... found it. It is Mockett Kitchen Power Grommet #PCS34:
PCS34.jpg
 
M. D. said:
It is a sin , under the circumstances, that I am willing to commit and take responsibility for.
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As have I and will again at some point.
 
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tallguy said:
Nevermind... found it. It is Mockett Kitchen Power Grommet #PCS34:
PCS34.jpg
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I'm not sure this is code compiant, it needs to be plugged in. They claim UL listing but I question if it is listed as a Kitchen SA receptacle. I remember this getting kicked around here before but I don't think it was concluded that it was acceptable.
 
M. D. said:
I don't think it would meet the requirement it is listed as a power tap
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Good point. Some dude named Shunk agrees too... Too bad they don't have a hard wired model. I'd be willing to bet though that many if not most inspectors would find this acceptable given the alternative is to rip out a 9' window.
 
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LawnGuyLandSparky said:
You're forgetting that another valid reason for a waiver is that the intent of the code is met.

WHY does the code require receptacles within 24'' of the sink? Let's face it - most "regular" kitchens, the one side will be blocked by a drainboard. Most "regular" kitchens have a 22" or 44" sink, and perhaps a window IFO it if it's even on an exterior wall. And MOST regular kitchens, if wired to minimum code, are considered by the HOs to not have enough counter space and not have enough receptacles. The spacing rules assure that there will be outlets where the HO is most likely going to want to place appliances.

By locating a 9' window IFO the sink, it is clear this HO does NOT want a toaster or a coffeepot next to the sink, S/he wants the VIEW - hence the lack of a backsplash.

In my own kitchen, I have a single double-hung window IFO the sink. When I renovated I made it wider and lower to see more of the backyard. In hindsight, I should have eliminated the splash in that area and brought it right to countertop height. But, If I had a view of some beautiful mountains, or an ocean view, and I valued that more than the wall cabinets, I would want the window wider, unobscured, and from countertop to ceiling. You can bet "you can't have that because I need a place for a code-required outlet" would not sit well with me. I would find a way around it.
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There is no intent in 210.52(B). It's pretty clear in what it says. It doesn't say "every 4' or so, depending on what the homeowner wants".

Is 3' close enough? Maybe. How about 3'6"? A great view of my back yard or a code violation? I agree with Scott, once you violate one code section, why stop there? You don't have to have any upper cabinets in your kitchen, make the whole wall window, but leave room for the required outlets.

Once you've sold your soul to the devil, you can never buy it back. You might be feeding your kids, but you are teaching them too. Breaking the law to make a buck is ok. You don't need pricipals as long as you're getting paid.
 
It is amazing how many times this comes up. I am on my county Electric Board and it is in the county ordinance that the electric board is the AHJ for our county. Our policy has been not to grant variances for kitchen receptacles. We have always been able to find a way to meet the code and let the homeowner have a workable design. The first step seems to be to ask for a variance without thinking about how to meet the code. The code says what it says and requires the receptacle spacing that it requires. This is nothing new, and any decent kitchen designer should be able to give the homeowner a workable design AND meet code. Most of time it is just easier to ask for a variance. The NEC does not care about easy, or cheap, or pretty. We often show the homeowner a picture of a "tombstone" type counter-top receptacle that will meet the code. Most then quickly come up with some other solution because they do not like the looks of the tombstone type outlet.
 
cowboyjwc said:
Once you've sold your soul to the devil, you can never buy it back. You might be feeding your kids, but you are teaching them too. Breaking the law to make a buck is ok. You don't need pricipals as long as you're getting paid.
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Aparrently we have found the "one" without sin?:smile:
 
M. D. said:
Aparrently we have found the "one" without sin?:smile:
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Never said I hadn't done it, I just don't try to justify it. Of course I was chasing the $$$.:wink:

My good book says "thou shalt not violate the code, lest thou shalt pay for their sins".:smile: John 90.4

I'm finding as my son get's older (13) that do as I say and not as I do, is simply not cutting it anymore and is coming back to bite me in the you know what.:rolleyes:

Heaven does't want me and hell's afraid I'll take over.:D
 
The use of the word you implied something unintended ,.. :smile:

Quote:
Originally Posted by cowboyjwc
Once you've sold your soul to the devil, you can never buy it back. You might be feeding your kids, but you are teaching them too. Breaking the law to make a buck is ok. You don't need pricipals as long as you're getting paid.
 
haskindm said:
It is amazing how many times this comes up. I am on my county Electric Board and it is in the county ordinance that the electric board is the AHJ for our county. Our policy has been not to grant variances for kitchen receptacles. We have always been able to find a way to meet the code and let the homeowner have a workable design. The first step seems to be to ask for a variance without thinking about how to meet the code. The code says what it says and requires the receptacle spacing that it requires. This is nothing new, and any decent kitchen designer should be able to give the homeowner a workable design AND meet code. Most of time it is just easier to ask for a variance. The NEC does not care about easy, or cheap, or pretty. We often show the homeowner a picture of a "tombstone" type counter-top receptacle that will meet the code. Most then quickly come up with some other solution because they do not like the looks of the tombstone type outlet.
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Kudos to you and your Board. "Design by Variance" should not be the "motis operendi" of design professionals. :smile:
 
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