Fire alarm circuit 760.41(b)

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ramsy

Roger Ruhle dba NoFixNoPay
Location
LA basin, CA
Occupation
Service Electrician 2020 NEC
Nothing in Article 760 applies to hard wired smoke alarms in a dwelling. Article 760 only applies if you have a fire alarm control panel.

Can't find where dwelling branch circuits, for hard-wired smoke defectors, are excluded from the scope of article 760.1, much less from 760.41(B). Please advise.

760.1 Scope. This article covers the installation of wiring and equipment of fire alarm systems, including all circuits control‐ led and powered by the fire alarm system
 

ramsy

Roger Ruhle dba NoFixNoPay
Location
LA basin, CA
Occupation
Service Electrician 2020 NEC
Neither can I find where dwelling line-voltage smoke detectors are excluded as connected equipment?

760.2 Definitions
Fire Alarm Circuit. The portion of the wiring system between the load side of the overcurrent device or the power-limited supply and the connected equipment of all circuits powered and controlled by the fire alarm system. Fire alarm circuits are classified as either non–power-limited or power-limited.
 

ramsy

Roger Ruhle dba NoFixNoPay
Location
LA basin, CA
Occupation
Service Electrician 2020 NEC
Nothing in Article 760 applies to hard wired smoke alarms in a dwelling.

Article 760 specifically includes the language dwelling-unit that supply power for fire alarm system.

760. 41(B) Informational Note,
760.121(A) Informational Note 2
 

d0nut

Senior Member
Location
Omaha, NE
A fire alarm and a smoke alarm are different things. A fire alarm is a system with a fire alarm control panel and connected initiation, notification, monitoring, and control devices. A smoke alarm is a stand alone device with smoke detection and alarm. Smoke alarms can be interconnected, but that doesn't change them into a fire alarm system. They are still fundamentally stand alone devices.

Article 760 covers fire alarm systems, not smoke alarms.
 

ramsy

Roger Ruhle dba NoFixNoPay
Location
LA basin, CA
Occupation
Service Electrician 2020 NEC
Smoke alarms can be interconnected, but that doesn't change them into a fire alarm system. They are still fundamentally stand alone devices.

Article 760 covers fire alarm systems, not smoke alarms.

Perhaps you describe the actual industry practice. Would never have come to that conclusion relying on the code language alone.

Similar code confusion has been clarified by reaching out to my local fire marshal.
 

Sea Nile

Senior Member
Location
Georgia
Occupation
Electrician
I was trying to find smoke detectors in the code just yesterday. Gave up and consulted DuckDuckGo. Found what I was looking for in NFPA 72
 

Fred B

Senior Member
Location
Upstate, NY
Occupation
Electrician
The IRC (international residential code) chater 2, defines smoke alarms as different from fire alarm systems that are cover in the NEC according to IAEI article.
Many have thought the get around associated for fire alarms related to AFCI/GFCI requirements could be used to justify a residential code failing by calling the smoke detector a fire alarm. (It is not.)
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
Can't find where dwelling branch circuits, for hard-wired smoke defectors, are excluded from the scope of article 760.1, much less from 760.41(B). Please advise.

760.1 Scope. This article covers the installation of wiring and equipment of fire alarm systems, including all circuits control‐ led and powered by the fire alarm system
The issue is that there is no such thing as a smoke detector in a typical dwelling unit. Such hard wired smoke alarms are not part of a fire alarm system. Fire alarm systems have the following three things, 1) control panel, 2) initiating devices, and 3) indicating devices.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
Perhaps you describe the actual industry practice. Would never have come to that conclusion relying on the code language alone.

Similar code confusion has been clarified by reaching out to my local fire marshal.
You have to look to the document that has purview over fire alarm systems, and household smoke alarms, that being NFPA 72, National Fire Alarm and Signaling code. That very clearly points out the difference between fire alarm systems, and single and multi-station household alarms.

The requirements for the fire alarm power supply branch circuits required in 760.41 and 760.121 originate from Chapter 10 of NFPA 72.

Chapter 22 of that same document covers the interconnected dwelling unit says, in 29.1.3 that the requirements of Chapter 10 do not apply to these systems.
 

ramsy

Roger Ruhle dba NoFixNoPay
Location
LA basin, CA
Occupation
Service Electrician 2020 NEC
You have to look to the document that has purview over fire alarm systems, and household smoke alarms, that being NFPA 72, National Fire Alarm and Signaling code. That very clearly points out the difference between fire alarm systems, and single and multi-station household alarms.

The requirements for the fire alarm power supply branch circuits required in 760.41 and 760.121 originate from Chapter 10 of NFPA 72.

Chapter 22 of that same document covers the interconnected dwelling unit says, in 29.1.3 that the requirements of Chapter 10 do not apply to these systems.

Roger that, it took multiple fire-code standards to figure this out.

Wanted to know if hard-wired smoke outlet shared with other loads was a defect that must be declared in Transfer on Disclosure Statement (TDS), required by most states, under the doctrine of "Cavet Venditor" .

Different state's Association of Realtors may require details of construction defects on Seller Property Questionnaire (SPQ), among other things. (ie) If asked CA.Civ.Code 1710.2(d) even requires sellers to disclose any deaths, haunting, or paranormal activity.

NFPA 72 first edition was in 1999, no reference to dedicated branch circuits for fire alarm systems until 2010 NFPA-72 10.5.5.1

While chapter 29 for dwellings prohibits disconnecting primary power on fire alarm circuits, except for OCP, sharing circuits with other loads is not prohibited. I see your 2013 NFPA-72 29.1.3 also clarifies dwellings can share other loads with hard-wired smokes, since Chapter 10 does not apply.

However, when this client's existing property was built in 1989, NFPA 72 did not exist. Uniform Building Code (UBC 1210) and (NEC 760) were among several adopted codes in my state.

Without any reference to "dedicated" circuit / "no other load" for fire-alarm power thru-out PDF copy of 1988 UBC or 1987 NEC at nfpa.org, my client's question seems answered, unless our fire marshal points out we failed to check the IBC, IRC, or some other adopted code.
 

ramsy

Roger Ruhle dba NoFixNoPay
Location
LA basin, CA
Occupation
Service Electrician 2020 NEC
The IRC (international residential code) chater 2, defines smoke alarms as different from fire alarm systems that are cover in the NEC according to IAEI article.
Many have thought the get around associated for fire alarms related to AFCI/GFCI requirements could be used to justify a residential code failing by calling the smoke detector a fire alarm. (It is not.)

Thank you for this reference.

Another excellent source of supplemental reading, necessary to navigate NEC topics. In this case, to clarify the NEC should not be consulted for dwelling smoke alarms, regardless of Article 760.41(B) Informational Notes using "dwelling" and "fire alarm system" is the same sentence.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
....

NFPA 72 first edition was in 1999, no reference to dedicated branch circuits for fire alarm systems until 2010 NFPA-72 10.5.5.1

...
I have a copy of NFPA 72 from 1996. It indicates that the first edition of that code was in 1993, but some of the information existed in other NFPA codes and standards going back to 1898, and were combined into a single standard in 1993.
 

ramsy

Roger Ruhle dba NoFixNoPay
Location
LA basin, CA
Occupation
Service Electrician 2020 NEC
I have a copy of NFPA 72 from 1996. It indicates that the first edition of that code was in 1993, but some of the information existed in other NFPA codes and standards going back to 1898, and were combined into a single standard in 1993.

Thats what I get for relying on the internet or NFPA.org, which restricts public-domain access of NFPA-72 from 1999 to present.

For existing property subject to older codes, the public-internet domain does not identify when local AHJ's adopt NFPA 72, or other standards, critical for reporting the state's Transfer on Disclosure Statements (TDS) for building defects. In my state, CA.Civ.Code 1102, et. seq

How likely is any commercial or supervised fire-alarm circuit in violation of NFPA 72, chapter 10, disclosed as defect without public access to historical data on AHJ adoption of code standards?

My suspicion is TDS disclosures are therefore unreliable, and insurance has no incentive to prove it until claims are filed.
 

ramsy

Roger Ruhle dba NoFixNoPay
Location
LA basin, CA
Occupation
Service Electrician 2020 NEC
Its not "Bad Faith" if insurance inspectors prove excluded perils, un-reported construction defect, remodel subject to retro-active permit, or "Electrical Arc Damage" not covered.

The standards that property insurance demands may differentiate contractors who are specialized enough to make those requirements a point in their bid policy. However, the economy is not driven by developers incentivized by insurance standards. Developers demand indemnity from sub-contractor negligence, as do inspector municipalities issuing permits; neither are party to the cause insurance may find for denying some future claim.

Perhaps, having the only skin in the game during construction or alterations, property owners that hire ignoramuses do so at their own peril, since owners bear all losses after those contractors are long gone.
 

tortuga

Code Historian
Location
Oregon
Occupation
Electrical Design
I remember trying to look up residential smoke alarm requirements in our state residential code and it was between a section tabbed 'window and fall protection' and 'site addresses', basically its buried deep in chapter 3 of the residential code.
 
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