Fire alarm devices & electrical boxes

[LancePacific]

Hi everyone,

This is my first post. I am about to say something and most of you are probably going to disagree with me. That is I say that NFPA 70 (NEC) does not require that fire alarm devices be mounted on electrical boxes.

Article 760.130(B)(1) states: "Cable splices or terminations shall be made in listed fittings, boxes, enclosures, fire alarm devices, or utilization equipment". Quoted from the 2011 NEC Handbook.So where in that sentence does it say that fire alarm devices must be mounted on a box? Thats right, it doesn't. It states that the splices or terminations must be made in a box or in a fire alarm device. To me that means that if I have a device i.e. a smoke with flying leads I would have to mount it on a box to make the termination. However, if I have a device that has a connection point contained inside the device (as most do) then I shouldn't need a box.

System Sensor seems to agree with me on this and they have stated on their website that they do not require that System Sensor devices be installed on boxes.

Still, most inspectors here in Oregon and Washington try to tell me that fire alarm devices must be installed on a box, however when I challenge them to produce the article in the NEC code - they can't do it. Some agree with me, where as others try to bullshoot their way through it. Some just produce the very code that I just mentioned above. I guess its all up to interpretation. To me it's plain english.

So what do you guys think? Don't get me wrong, my installs are always above and beyond code. I always use boxes when the structure calls for surface mounting or I'm running conduit, but sometimes it just isn't necessary.

 

[iwire]

Code wise I think you are on solid ground.

That said I don't shortcut life safety systems and have never installed a FA device without a box or enclosure.

Low volt motion sensors, t-stats sure no box, but not FA devices.

 

[jumper]

I am not sure that boxes are not required. 760 references 300.15 and I am trying to figure out if a FA device would not meet the requirement of a box.

 

[nhfire77]

How offen do you mount a horn or smoke without a box? Is that a corner cutting job spec?

Some may be able interpret it as a box is needed anyway, but I digress.



I personally would never do that, and by that I mean argue with the FD over boxes. I'd rather make them happy and do a first class job. That attitude over, IMO is hack, will ellicicit a poor response from the AHJ. They will be overly critical and look for things to trip you up on.

Before anyone says: it's not your money, do what the customer wants. I agree if the minimum is what's speced fine. I wouldn't be the guy writing that spec. In fact most specs/plans call for a box.


I'm not trying to be a jerk, just point out, most folks here hold ourselves to a higher standard. So, yes is necessary, even if its beyond the minimum

 

[gadfly56]

I have seen System Sensor 2W-B smoke detectors mounted directly to a ceiling tile with toggles. System Sensor allows this. However, if you were installing Siemens FP-11 smoke detectors, the installation instructions say it must be mounted on a box. Since the instructions are part of the UL listing, in this case you would have to use a box. I'm not aware of any notification appliances that don't require a box in their installation instructions so I doubt you'd get away with it for those devices.

 

[iwire]

will elicit a poor response from the AHJ. They will be overly critical and look for things to trip you up on.

Spoken like a seasoned New Englander.

 

[nhfire77]

Spoken like a seasoned New Englander.

Ha!

I'm just a nice guy that's all. Speaking of tyrants, we just did a single office renovation one strobe and one sprinkler head move. Sprinkler guy applied for a permit on friday, was approved Monday at 9am He did did the work Monday at 11am and called for inspection at 2pm. They called back to confirm the inspection time and and threated jail time for not having the permit posted on site. Jesus, I ran to get mine, after that overreaction. He's a good guy too, had plenty of other work in this city with the person that made the call.


Have you heard anyone getting flack since the MA supreme court ruling for FD's radio/master boxes? I'm all for selling an extra 6-10k, so I'm sad see it go :weeping:

 

[iwire]

Have you heard anyone getting flack since the MA supreme court ruling for FD's radio/master boxes? I'm all for selling an extra 6-10k, so I'm sad see it go :weeping:

Not yet.

As far as the loss, yeah I hear you but am not a believer in codes to make money.

 

[LancePacific]

Thanks for the response everyone. I finally found a low voltage thread with some activity on it. I agree with you all that we shouldn't be cutting any corners on life saftey systems. Probably not a good way for me to make a first impression here, but that's not my intent. I was just curious as to what other professionals accross the country thought about this and how they were doing it. You're always using boxes because that's the general consensus of how it should be done and you're going with the flow. No one has yet to show me in the code that fire alarm devices must always be mounted on boxes. If that is the intent of the code, then I think it should be rewritten to state exactly that.

jumper,
You mentioned that 760 references article 300.15 and I think that one further supports my stand:
300.15(B) Equipment. "An intergral junction box or wiring compartment as part of approved equipment shall be permitted in lieu of a box."

nhfire77,
No, I don't think you are a jerk at all. If you go above and beyond the minimum and put in boxes just to be sure the job gets done right, and not have any loose ends for the AHJ, then I think that's great. Last thing anyone wants to do is fail inspection before the inspector, the contractor, and the owner. Not a good way to do business. However, if the opportunity arises for me to question them before hand, I'll do it. I've been working in this field for 20 years now and have a good enough reputation that I can do that. If I have to correct something afterward I'll ask the AHJ to provide me with the code violation. If I have to do my job right I expect the same of them, but even if they can't show me in writing I'll still do it their way, to keep a good relationship.

gadfly56,
You are correct, if the manufacture's spec's call for a box, then you must put in a box. But what if, in fact, they say the opposite? Here is a link for you from System Sensor's website concerning fire alarm devices on electrical boxes, and that includes NAC devices: http://www.systemsensor.com/techbulletins/
Click on the pdf "The use of electrical boxes according to the N.E.C."

I rest my case.

 

[LancePacific]

Oh by the way, I'm not trying to convince anyone here that they don't need electrical boxes. I prefer using them because it makes for a better installation for a variety of reasons. But not always. For example, most people use cut-in boxes on existing hollow walls. I've seen too many of these poorly installed so that they are pulling out of the wall. I would rather drill a smaller exit hole for the wire next to the stud and then mount one side of the device directly to the stud. Takes more time to fish a wire out of the smaller hole but does less damage to the building and makes for a more solid install.

If there is any time saved I would rather spend it in other areas that are more important to me, like dressing up the panel, or running my conduits all the way to the ceiling and not just throwing in one small stick to get above 7 feet.

 

[gadfly56]

Thanks for the response everyone. I finally found a low voltage thread with some activity on it. I agree with you all that we shouldn't be cutting any corners on life saftey systems. Probably not a good way for me to make a first impression here, but that's not my intent. I was just curious as to what other professionals accross the country thought about this and how they were doing it. You're always using boxes because that's the general consensus of how it should be done and you're going with the flow. No one has yet to show me in the code that fire alarm devices must always be mounted on boxes. If that is the intent of the code, then I think it should be rewritten to state exactly that.

jumper,
You mentioned that 760 references article 300.15 and I think that one further supports my stand:
300.15(B) Equipment. "An intergral junction box or wiring compartment as part of approved equipment shall be permitted in lieu of a box."

nhfire77,
No, I don't think you are a jerk at all. If you go above and beyond the minimum and put in boxes just to be sure the job gets done right, and not have any loose ends for the AHJ, then I think that's great. Last thing anyone wants to do is fail inspection before the inspector, the contractor, and the owner. Not a good way to do business. However, if the opportunity arises for me to question them before hand, I'll do it. I've been working in this field for 20 years now and have a good enough reputation that I can do that. If I have to correct something afterward I'll ask the AHJ to provide me with the code violation. If I have to do my job right I expect the same of them, but even if they can't show me in writing I'll still do it their way, to keep a good relationship.

gadfly56,
You are correct, if the manufacture's spec's call for a box, then you must put in a box. But what if, in fact, they say the opposite? Here is a link for you from System Sensor's website concerning fire alarm devices on electrical boxes, and that includes NAC devices: http://www.systemsensor.com/techbulletins/
Click on the pdf "The use of electrical boxes according to the N.E.C."

I rest my case.

Don't rest too quickly, son. Take a look at the installation instruction for the System Sensor notification appliances. Open one for any product; you'll note that the list at the top is basically for every device they manufacture. See the section on "Mounting" on page 3 and Figures 4 through 9. Everything is mounted to a box. In this case, they do not "say the opposite".

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Do the devices in question have a cover that is part of the device that you have to remove to access the terminations?

 

[RICK NAPIER]

I have come across detectors that did not call for a box but have yet come across a notification device that did not call for a box.

 

[jusme123]

Do the devices in question have a cover that is part of the device that you have to remove to access the terminations?

probable the actual smoke detector itself.

 

[gadfly56]

probable the actual smoke detector itself.

In the case of a System Sensor 2W-B, yes. The wiring is done in the base and the detector is inserted and rotated to lock it into the base. Unlock the detector, rotate and remove and you'll see the terminals staring back at you.

 

[jewellfish]

Taking this in a slightly different direction, is a ceiling tile listed for supporting a fire alarm device?

 

[WIMaster]

Has your local jurisdiction adopted NFPA72?
If so you need to get a copy, I am 98% sure it says you need a box.
I would dig it up but I am very ill and more ornery than usual!

 

[gadfly56]

Taking this in a slightly different direction, is a ceiling tile listed for supporting a fire alarm device?

Here's what we have from System Sensor:

Each i3 Series detector is supplied with a mounting base that can
be mounted:
1. To a single gang box, or
2. To a 31⁄2-inch or 4-inch octagonal box, or
3. To a 4-inch square box with a plaster ring, or
4. Direct mount or to ceiling using drywall fasteners (Figure 2).

Draw your own conclusion, but it doesn't seem to specifically exclude a ceiling tile.

 

[nhfire77]

Taking this in a slightly different direction, is a ceiling tile listed for supporting a fire alarm device?

More importantly is the ceiling grid? If the only thing holding the smoke up is the FA cable, you cannot support a device by the cable. And building code doesn't allow you to add weight to a ceiling grid unless it's rated to support that weight.

I'm not beneath attaching a small motion detector or LV occupancy sensor to a ceiling tile, without support( important exception: cable supported to building, directly above not touching tiles) But anything else, especially fire, never. I know a LV occ. sensor and a 2WB are similar weight, but one isnt a life safety device.

 

[jewellfish]

That was the direction I was going with my question. I seem to recall a requirement that no device be attached to ceiling tiles directly because the ceiling tile was not to be considered a supporting structure. But this was back when I was in IL, north of Chicago and it could have been a local ammendment. I will have to get unlazy and do some more digging to make sure...the requirement had something to so with fire department not wanting things falling on their heads when they went into a structure and started ripping down tiles.