Fire Alarm drop out of motor operated doors

[mshields]

Do motor operated doors in the egress path need a connection to the fire alarm system to disable the motor.

I'm being told that even though the normal position of these is closed, it is required that the motors be disabled in the event of a fire (like a hold open door) such that they need to be opened manually and such that they will promptly shut again on gravity after pushing them open; as opposed to the longer process of opening them with the door paddle resulting in the door being opened for a longer period of time.

I've never heard of this. Have any of you? How do you normally handle it?

 

[gadfly56]

Do motor operated doors in the egress path need a connection to the fire alarm system to disable the motor.

I'm being told that even though the normal position of these is closed, it is required that the motors be disabled in the event of a fire (like a hold open door) such that they need to be opened manually and such that they will promptly shut again on gravity after pushing them open; as opposed to the longer process of opening them with the door paddle resulting in the door being opened for a longer period of time.

I've never heard of this. Have any of you? How do you normally handle it?

The fire alarm usually only gets involved if you have access controlled doors. In that event, the fire alarm cuts out the security system to allow free egress or ingress (for fire fighters). Can you provide more information on how these doors operate? If power is cut to the doors can you push/slide them open with little effort?

 

[LIM]

Do motor operated doors in the egress path need a connection to the fire alarm system to disable the motor.

I'm being told that even though the normal position of these is closed, it is required that the motors be disabled in the event of a fire (like a hold open door) such that they need to be opened manually and such that they will promptly shut again on gravity after pushing them open; as opposed to the longer process of opening them with the door paddle resulting in the door being opened for a longer period of time.

I've never heard of this. Have any of you? How do you normally handle it?

What type of facility are you working in? This is a requirement out of NFPA 101.

 

[ron]

Like a door hold open magnet that must be released upon a fire if the doors are needed for maintaining fire ratings, the same would be true for a motorized door. If it should be closed for fire ratings, you wouldn't want the door to swing open with the motor if activated (motor typically holds door open for a period of time)

Only if needed for maintaining fire ratings.

 

[jusme123]

...in addition to rons post, some roll up doors have fusible links that melt at certain temp. and close door, I've seen them on dampers doors in sheetrock above ceilings, and on cafeteria counter roll up doors.

 

[Jraef]

...in addition to rons post, some roll up doors have fusible links that melt at certain temp. and close door, I've seen them on dampers doors in sheetrock above ceilings, and on cafeteria counter roll up doors.

I can't remember which plant I was at recently that had these, but you could clearly see how it would work. The link was on a ratchet pawl that held the roll-up door open, and when motoring, the motor operator mechanism moved the pawl to allow it to work. But once that link melted, the pawl released permanently and the door would drop under it's own weight. Disabling the motor would then be irrelevant because once that link melts away, you can't use the motor any more anyway.

Looked similar to this, but with a motorized operator instead of a chain.

http://www.commercialdoorsdirect.com/images/retrofit-operator3.jpg

 

[mgookin]

Do motor operated doors in the egress path need a connection to the fire alarm system to disable the motor.

I'm being told that even though the normal position of these is closed, it is required that the motors be disabled in the event of a fire (like a hold open door) such that they need to be opened manually and such that they will promptly shut again on gravity after pushing them open; as opposed to the longer process of opening them with the door paddle resulting in the door being opened for a longer period of time.

I've never heard of this. Have any of you? How do you normally handle it?

Hi Mike:

No. But that is based on assumptions.

I'm going to assume these are motion activated doors like we see as main entrances and exits in retail these days. The ADA loves them!

What you have not told us is whether they are rated. If they are not rated, you don't have to do anything because they break away when requisite force is applied in the direction of egress upon power failure. It turns them into a side swinging door. As to ingress for firefighting forces, don't worry; they'll get in.
If they're not rated they don't have to reclose, because they don't have to be there in the first place.
Make sense?

 

[jusme123]

I can't remember which plant I was at recently that had these, but you could clearly see how it would work. The link was on a ratchet pawl that held the roll-up door open, and when motoring, the motor operator mechanism moved the pawl to allow it to work. But once that link melted, the pawl released permanently and the door would drop under it's own weight. Disabling the motor would then be irrelevant because once that link melts away, you can't use the motor any more anyway.

Looked similar to this, but with a motorized operator instead of a chain.

http://www.commercialdoorsdirect.com/images/retrofit-operator3.jpg

...most modern roll up doors have a motor, manual chain, and fusible link, usually accompanied by a red rope from a mechanism that bypasses motor and engages chain gearing.

I'd hate to be under a large rool-up door when that link melts

 

[luckylerado]

Do motor operated doors in the egress path need a connection to the fire alarm system to disable the motor....

This is an interesting question. I do not think that they do but they are not free from other requirements. A FA connection would make sense though.

I found the following in NFPA 101:

7.2.1.9*Powered Door Leaf Operation.
7.2.1.9.1.1 The forces required to manually open the door
leaves specified in 7.2.1.9.1 shall not exceed those required in
7.2.1.4.5, except that the force required to set the leaf in motion shall not exceed 50 lbf (222 N).

7.2.1.4.5.1 The forces required to fully open any door leaf
manually in a means of egress shall not exceed 15 lbf (67 N) to
release the latch, 30 lbf (133 N) to set the leaf in motion, and
15 lbf (67 N) to open the leaf to the minimum required width,
unless otherwise specified as follows:

7.2.1.9.2 Self-Closing or Self-Latching Door Leaf Operation.
Where door leaves are required to be self-closing or self latching and are operated by
power upon the approach of a person, or are provided with power-assisted manual operation,
they shall be permitted in the means of egress where they meet the following criteria:

(1) The door leaves can be opened manually in accordance
with 7.2.1.9.1 to allow egress travel in the event of power
failure.
(2) New door leaves remain in the closed position, unless actuated or opened manually.
(3) When actuated, new door leaves remain open for not more than 30 seconds.
(4) Door leaves held open for any period of time close — and the power-assist mechanism ceases to function — upon
operation of approved smoke detectors installed in such away as to detect smoke on either side of the door
openingin accordance with the provisions of NFPA72, NationalFireAlarm and Signaling Code.
(5) Door leaves required to be self-latching are either self latching or become self-latching upon operation of approved smoke detectors per 7.2.1.9.2(4).
(6) New power-assisted swinging door assemblies comply with BHMA/ANSI A156.19, American National Standard for Power Assist and Low Energy Power Operated Doors.

 

[drcampbell]

... I'd hate to be under a large roll-up door when that link melts

If for no other reason, the very large fire in progress.

 

[mgookin]

If for no other reason, the very large fire in progress.

+1

If it's hot enough under that door to melt that link, you're not going to feel the door hit you.

 

[gadfly56]

+1

If it's hot enough under that door to melt that link, you're not going to feel the door hit you.

Those doors are also electrically operated on smoke detection. Their rate of travel is limited to 4" per second.

 

[mgookin]

Those doors are also electrically operated on smoke detection. Their rate of travel is limited to 4" per second.

Some are. I agree.

 

[mshields]

your input

your input

Thanks for all the input. The Chapter 7 paragragh that one of you posted is indeed at the heart of the matter. I note however that the bullet that addresses this question pertains to power assisted doors. This is a full motor operated door and by the way to answer some of your questions. We are talking about motor operated doors in a hospital and in the path of egress. These are the doors you hit a paddle on either side to operate and which DO close within 30 seconds.

I've learned that NFPA 72 requires that door holders be released in 10 seconds. That being the case, even a full motor operated door, holding a door open for 30 seconds would be counter to that requirement.

Also, I suspect the wording alluded to above (i.e. paragragh (4) indicating applicability to "power assisted" doors is perhaps just poor wording.

Still, I am most compelled by the NFPA 72, 10 second rule.


Thanks,

Mike

 

[mgookin]

Thanks for all the input. The Chapter 7 paragragh that one of you posted is indeed at the heart of the matter. I note however that the bullet that addresses this question pertains to power assisted doors. This is a full motor operated door and by the way to answer some of your questions. We are talking about motor operated doors in a hospital and in the path of egress. These are the doors you hit a paddle on either side to operate and which DO close within 30 seconds.

I've learned that NFPA 72 requires that door holders be released in 10 seconds. That being the case, even a full motor operated door, holding a door open for 30 seconds would be counter to that requirement.

Also, I suspect the wording alluded to above (i.e. paragragh (4) indicating applicability to "power assisted" doors is perhaps just poor wording.

Still, I am most compelled by the NFPA 72, 10 second rule.


Thanks,

Mike

That being said, yes, absolutely tie into the FACP.

From your post it sounded like front entry doors at a retailer. Bad assumption on my part.

 

[mshields]

Motor operated door vs Power assist

Motor operated door vs Power assist

Still not confident that my motor operated doors that are normally closed need to drop out upon a fire alarm being initiated. What is nagging at me is the fact that the NFPA 101 paragraph that one of you was kind enough to paste in above, talks about "power assisted" doors, stating that they have to be disconnected from power source.

Is a power assisted door the same as a motor operated door.

Do motor operated doors automatically fail shut. I.e. If you cut power may one rest assured that they will close on gravity? How about power assisted doors, if in fact there is a meaningful difference between the two relevant to this discussion.

Thanks,

Mike

 

[mgookin]

Still not confident that my motor operated doors that are normally closed need to drop out upon a fire alarm being initiated. What is nagging at me is the fact that the NFPA 101 paragraph that one of you was kind enough to paste in above, talks about "power assisted" doors, stating that they have to be disconnected from power source.

Is a power assisted door the same as a motor operated door.

Do motor operated doors automatically fail shut. I.e. If you cut power may one rest assured that they will close on gravity? How about power assisted doors, if in fact there is a meaningful difference between the two relevant to this discussion.

Thanks,

Mike

What we haven't got out of you is if the door is rated.

It's either something to keep strangers from wandering into areas where they are not welcome, or it's a horizontal exit. Which is it?

 

[luckylerado]

What does the door operator manufacturer have to say? They are generally pretty knowledgeable in these sorts of things.

 

[gadfly56]

Thanks for all the input. The Chapter 7 paragragh that one of you posted is indeed at the heart of the matter. I note however that the bullet that addresses this question pertains to power assisted doors. This is a full motor operated door and by the way to answer some of your questions. We are talking about motor operated doors in a hospital and in the path of egress. These are the doors you hit a paddle on either side to operate and which DO close within 30 seconds.

I've learned that NFPA 72 requires that door holders be released in 10 seconds. That being the case, even a full motor operated door, holding a door open for 30 seconds would be counter to that requirement.

Also, I suspect the wording alluded to above (i.e. paragragh (4) indicating applicability to "power assisted" doors is perhaps just poor wording.

Still, I am most compelled by the NFPA 72, 10 second rule.


Thanks,

Mike

That rule is for access controlled doors ONLY, with a mag lock or strike. When you kill the power you can operate them manually without hindrance. Your doors would need to either meet the same criteria or on fire alarm open and stay open, preferably even if the power is eventually cut, or if the power is cut you can simply push them open.

Rereading, it could also be about the internal fire/smoke doors, in which case they just release the mag holders and that's it.

 

[mshields]

Thank you for all the great input

Thank you for all the great input

thanks