Fire Alarm Inspections

[W@ttson]

As an Electrical Engineering Consulting company that performs design of fire alarm systems, can you perform fire alarm inspections in your jurisdiction? Can Electrical Contractors? Or does the company need to be a Fire Alarm Company Contractor? Who can perform fire alarm inspections in your area?

This is just a survey, I understand that different jurisdictions require different things, that is the point, want to get an idea of the requirements around the country.

For example in NJ, to perform a fire alarm inspection based on NJ Fire Code, you need to be a Contractor. Either a fire alarm contractor or Electrical Contractor. If you are none of the above, then you need to get NICET II certified and then register with the state for a permit, you must then maintain a 24 Hour emergency line, tag all your company vehicles with the 24 Hr number and permit number. Not sure why NJ precludes Electrical Engineers from Inspecting/Testing fire alarm systems when they can design the systems.

 

[gadfly56]

As an Electrical Engineering Consulting company that performs design of fire alarm systems, can you perform fire alarm inspections in your jurisdiction? Can Electrical Contractors? Or does the company need to be a Fire Alarm Company Contractor? Who can perform fire alarm inspections in your area?

This is just a survey, I understand that different jurisdictions require different things, that is the point, want to get an idea of the requirements around the country.

For example in NJ, to perform a fire alarm inspection based on NJ Fire Code, you need to be a Contractor. Either a fire alarm contractor or Electrical Contractor. If you are none of the above, then you need to get NICET II certified and then register with the state for a permit, you must then maintain a 24 Hour emergency line, tag all your company vehicles with the 24 Hr number and permit number. Not sure why NJ precludes Electrical Engineers from Inspecting/Testing fire alarm systems when they can design the systems.

As someone who has done both in NJ, design and testing are not overlapping skill sets.

 

[W@ttson]

As someone who has done both in NJ, design and testing are not overlapping skill sets.

Sure. But engineering is called a professional practice. Meaning you progress and develop your skill set with continued life long learning and training. For example you can design a power system and be on inspection inspecting the possibable troubles a client might have, part of this investigation might require you to insulation resistance test the conductors. As an electrical engineer you should be able to perform this test sufficiently according to IEEE or NETA standards. You don’t know these skills coming out of engineering school. You develop them through the professional field of engineering practice. Same thing with designing power systems or fire alarm systems or anything for that matter, you don’t come out of college having that skill set you practice it. Engineers, especially professional engineers have the special burden in their code of ethics to be required to hold their clients interests and the safety of the general public’s well being at the forefront. I believe an engineering firm going through the NFPA 72 annual form and then signing and sealing that test report holds a lot more wait than a fire alarm or electrical contractor which doesn’t hold the same fiduciary obligations.

 

[gadfly56]

Sure. But engineering is called a professional practice. Meaning you progress and develop your skill set with continued life long learning and training. For example you can design a power system and be on inspection inspecting the possibable troubles a client might have, part of this investigation might require you to insulation resistance test the conductors. As an electrical engineer you should be able to perform this test sufficiently according to IEEE or NETA standards. You don’t know these skills coming out of engineering school. You develop them through the professional field of engineering practice. Same thing with designing power systems or fire alarm systems or anything for that matter, you don’t come out of college having that skill set you practice it. Engineers, especially professional engineers have the special burden in their code of ethics to be required to hold their clients interests and the safety of the general public’s well being at the forefront. I believe an engineering firm going through the NFPA 72 annual form and then signing and sealing that test report holds a lot more wait than a fire alarm or electrical contractor which doesn’t hold the same fiduciary obligations.

Do you have a $1,000,000 dollar general liability coverage policy? That's the minimum, last I looked, for anyone holding a "P" license in NJ, which is for fire protection contractors, covering sprinkler, fire alarm, fire extinguishers, kitchen suppression, and special suppression systems. My last company carried $5,000,000. Do you have the necessary NICET certifications? Do you really understand the risks you are exposing yourself to? Last of all, you may reconsider your enthusiasm while crawling in an attic space 30" to the roof deck in August and the exposed floor joists are uncomfortably warm to the touch, hunting for alarm devices.

 

[W@ttson]

Do you have a $1,000,000 dollar general liability coverage policy? That's the minimum, last I looked, for anyone holding a "P" license in NJ, which is for fire protection contractors, covering sprinkler, fire alarm, fire extinguishers, kitchen suppression, and special suppression systems. My last company carried $5,000,000. Do you have the necessary NICET certifications? Do you really understand the risks you are exposing yourself to? Last of all, you may reconsider your enthusiasm while crawling in an attic space 30" to the roof deck in August and the exposed floor joists are uncomfortably warm to the touch, hunting for alarm devices.

I'm not asking for myself but curiosity for the logistics behind the reasoning for precluding a testing/inspection task from an engineering firm.

I would agree that Engineering firms should not be able to Install systems whether power distribution or fire alarm, but I would say that the primary duties for Engineering firms are Design\Testing\Inspecting. As for the NICET certification requirement, sure that sounds like a reasonable requirement to require engineering firms to hold in order to have their personnel to perform the inspection. However, as mentioned the other requirements in NJ are to maintain a 24 Hr hotline and to respond to emergency calls in 1 hr, as well as tagging company vehicles with hot line number and permit number. These requirements seem to push this in the realm of Contractor emergency response. Offering annual inspections of a fire alarm system is a planned event and if that is the service offered, I don't see why you need to maintain a 24 Hr emergency response hotline.

I think as for the insurance coverage, 1,000,000 is the minimum insurers offer for general liability. So any registered engineering company would carry that insurance in addition to their professional liability insurance (error and omissions insurance). which brings the point that the client would be further better covered with insurance because they would be able to claim an error or omission on an inspection report that a professional engineer produces. Something that I don't think can easily be done if a contractor produces that report.

 

[roger]

The way I have always seen it, the FA contractor (as licensed) does the inspection witnessed by the designer and furnishes the results with an NFPA 72 form (form #13 I believe) to all parties including A&E then the engineer writes a letter of acceptance to the AHJ. I know this is just the requirements of areas I have worked, others may be more lax.

Roger

 

[gadfly56]

I'm not asking for myself but curiosity for the logistics behind the reasoning for precluding a testing/inspection task from an engineering firm.

I would agree that Engineering firms should not be able to Install systems whether power distribution or fire alarm, but I would say that the primary duties for Engineering firms are Design\Testing\Inspecting. As for the NICET certification requirement, sure that sounds like a reasonable requirement to require engineering firms to hold in order to have their personnel to perform the inspection. However, as mentioned the other requirements in NJ are to maintain a 24 Hr hotline and to respond to emergency calls in 1 hr, as well as tagging company vehicles with hot line number and permit number. These requirements seem to push this in the realm of Contractor emergency response. Offering annual inspections of a fire alarm system is a planned event and if that is the service offered, I don't see why you need to maintain a 24 Hr emergency response hotline.

I think as for the insurance coverage, 1,000,000 is the minimum insurers offer for general liability. So any registered engineering company would carry that insurance in addition to their professional liability insurance (error and omissions insurance). which brings the point that the client would be further better covered with insurance because they would be able to claim an error or omission on an inspection report that a professional engineer produces. Something that I don't think can easily be done if a contractor produces that report.

You are certainly correct that the regulations are premised on the assumption that the firm doing the inspection is also handling installation/repairs. A higher hurdle for an engineering firm trying to enter the field would be the customer's desire to do one-stop shopping for fire contracting services. If your name is on the inspection report, you don't want a call from the fire captain at 2:00am asking you to come down and troubleshoot the fire alarm which is giving a false alarm. He won't want to hear from you that "we don't do that kind of work". As the inspection firm, you will be the one the customer deals with most frequently. He may not even remember who installed his system and actually holds the programming level pass codes. It comes down to the old saying "You touch it, you own it".

As for E&O coverage, anyone in the fire protection industry that isn't a trunk slammer is carrying that as well.

 

[gadfly56]

The way I have always seen it, the FA contractor (as licensed) does the inspection witnessed by the designer and furnishes the results with an NFPA 72 form (form #13 I believe) to all parties including A&E then the engineer writes a letter of acceptance to the AHJ. I know this is just the requirements of areas I have worked, others may be more lax.

Roger

That is typical for commissioning a new install, certainly. You could also be involved if they are using NFPA 3 or 4 in a commissioning scenario. For ongoing annual or semi-annual inspections, I've never seen an engineering firm involved. But I haven't see the whole world, either.

 

[W@ttson]

You are certainly correct that the regulations are premised on the assumption that the firm doing the inspection is also handling installation/repairs. A higher hurdle for an engineering firm trying to enter the field would be the customer's desire to do one-stop shopping for fire contracting services. If your name is on the inspection report, you don't want a call from the fire captain at 2:00am asking you to come down and troubleshoot the fire alarm which is giving a false alarm. He won't want to hear from you that "we don't do that kind of work". As the inspection firm, you will be the one the customer deals with most frequently. He may not even remember who installed his system and actually holds the programming level pass codes. It comes down to the old saying "You touch it, you own it".

As for E&O coverage, anyone in the fire protection industry that isn't a trunk slammer is carrying that as well.

Interesting points. I did not know anyone else besides Architects and Engineers carried E&O.

 

[W@ttson]

That is typical for commissioning a new install, certainly. You could also be involved if they are using NFPA 3 or 4 in a commissioning scenario. For ongoing annual or semi-annual inspections, I've never seen an engineering firm involved. But I haven't see the whole world, either.

Yeah I agree this sounds the way it would go on a new system.

Yeah interesting to see what the rest of the country experiences for Annual and Semi annuals.

Also another view point is governmental agencies where they are self permitting and self approving, AHJ authority.