Fire alarm, legal or not?

[pomsjosephm]

I was currently asking about elevator recalls and a buddy of mine who works for another compnay sent me a photo where he is working on an GE addressable panel sent me this photo. What you see is a series of relays for the recall, shunt trip monitors etc.. Now there is 120V in the back of the box from NM 12/2 and 12/3, to the left is the 120V to 24 volt transformer . The extension ring is mounted to the back box and now we have FPL that was jammed in the box, mind you this is an SLC loop going to the relay. He said it's not illegal but then I said yes it is because you are mixing classes of circuits without a separation barrier. If anyone can chime in on this it would be appreciated. Many thanks!

 

[gadfly56]

I was currently asking about elevator recalls and a buddy of mine who works for another compnay sent me a photo where he is working on an GE addressable panel sent me this photo. What you see is a series of relays for the recall, shunt trip monitors etc.. Now there is 120V in the back of the box from NM 12/2 and 12/3, to the left is the 120V to 24 volt transformer . The extension ring is mounted to the back box and now we have FPL that was jammed in the box, mind you this is an SLC loop going to the relay. He said it's not illegal but then I said yes it is because you are mixing classes of circuits without a separation barrier. If anyone can chime in on this it would be appreciated. Many thanks!

Oh, SO illegal! Though, to offer a partial break, the installation instructions for the module don't talk about the separation between power limited and non-power limited. Stil with that fill and the exposed wire, there's a whole lot of violation goin' on here.

 

[iwire]

Couldn't that be allowed by 760.136(D)?

Maybe with better wire routing?

 

[Strathead]

Oh, SO illegal! Though, to offer a partial break, the installation instructions for the module don't talk about the separation between power limited and non-power limited. Stil with that fill and the exposed wire, there's a whole lot of violation goin' on here.

What is the "whole lot of violation?" There is probably violation, but everything here could be perfectly legal, depending on the situation. Regarding box fill, the addition of a second extension ring which may have been removed for the picture would absolutely take care of that, but just because it 'looks' full doesn't mean it is either. It may be fine as is.

Regrading 120V, control modules are rated to intercept 120V and in order to do that, 120 and the SLC loop would be in the same enclosure. I think you were implying the same thing here. More likely though, the 120 passes to the transformer and the contacts are at 24V, which would be illegal.

Are there other illegal things you were referring to? Actually, I took another look and I see that there is no bushing on the rigid nipple. That is a clear violation of the NEC.

 

[gadfly56]

What is the "whole lot of violation?" There is probably violation, but everything here could be perfectly legal, depending on the situation. Regarding box fill, the addition of a second extension ring which may have been removed for the picture would absolutely take care of that, but just because it 'looks' full doesn't mean it is either. It may be fine as is.

Regrading 120V, control modules are rated to intercept 120V and in order to do that, 120 and the SLC loop would be in the same enclosure. I think you were implying the same thing here. More likely though, the 120 passes to the transformer and the contacts are at 24V, which would be illegal.

Are there other illegal things you were referring to? Actually, I took another look and I see that there is no bushing on the rigid nipple. That is a clear violation of the NEC.

I'll admit that I assumed there's no additional extension ring. If there is, you could be right. If there isn't, I think it's a fill violation. For the module, I know that Siemens provides a barrier that has to be installed to separate the power limited and non-power limited wiring and I believe that's the case generally.

 

[gadfly56]

Couldn't that be allowed by 760.136(D)?

Maybe with better wire routing?

Mmmm, maybe, but I'm not sure the JB is what's intended to be covered by "enclosure". I might be convinced otherwise if someone can make a good argument.

 

[pomsjosephm]

Couldn't that be allowed by 760.136(D)?

Maybe with better wire routing?

Hi, just to let you know they coffee cup for electricians called iWire and yes I have one
http://www.cafepress.com/+busybodies_electrician_mug,129725005

 

[pomsjosephm]

Interesting thoughts here. First based on what I read in the NEC conduit bushings are not required on 1/2inch rigid but again now we go back to "all conductors shall be protected" also "all CABLES shall be protected". I personally install bushings on all my conduit raceway regardless of size. My father who is a licensed E1 "high voltage electrician" will install a bonding bushing on the connector if it's going through a concentric knockout "IE: 3/4, 1/2 inch KO" for a mechanical bond and uses the grounding screw on the bushing to ground the pipe to the box.


What is being done here is illegal because the 1/4" separation is not there when you push the conductors into the box however a barrier could be used
2nd if you look closely on the wall someone mounted a box below where the extension ring was and the electrician or fire alarm installer did not have the
remaining material to finish so this was the quick way out. This can be easily fixed.

 

[cwniles]

Oh, SO illegal! Though, to offer a partial break, the installation instructions for the module don't talk about the separation between power limited and non-power limited. Stil with that fill and the exposed wire, there's a whole lot of violation goin' on here.

The instruction sheets I have seen for those modules specifically state.... "If the source is nonpower-limited, maintain a space of 1/4 inch from power-limited wiring or use FPL, FPLP, FPLR, or an equivalent in accordance with the National Electrical Code."

 

[gadfly56]

The instruction sheets I have seen for those modules specifically state.... "If the source is nonpower-limited, maintain a space of 1/4 inch from power-limited wiring or use FPL, FPLP, FPLR, or an equivalent in accordance with the National Electrical Code."

Yes, I should have been more clear. The instructions don't mention the installation of a physical barrier such as is indicated in the Siemens installation instructions for similar modules.