Fire Alarm Parts and Smarts

[ksmith846]

Question is: where could I start with trying to get Parts and Smarts Fire Alarm packages aboilished.

Here in my area, as I would assume is the case most everywhere, allows State EC's to purchase Parts and Smarts from whichever company may already own the existing Fire Alarm System.......IE a tenant buildout in an existing office building which already has a Fire Alarm company who holds the UL Certification on the main system in the building.

Example of this would be a doctor's office buildout in an existing office complex where there is an existing master system owned and certified by Fire Alarm company ABC. I am typically required by the bidding GC's to carry the number for the Fire Alarm in my quote for the buildout. I have 4 options at this point dependant upon if there is a UL Certificate on the existing house system.

First if there is no UL in place I can quote the added fire alarm equipment as a turnkey install with my preferred contractor and I can provide a very competitive price and usually hang onto the FA contract with my Electrical Contract.

Second if there is a UL in place I can quote the project Turnkey and pay the UL holder to recertify the system after we are finished.

Third if there is a UL in place and the Holder has an agreement with the building owner to only use their parts to add to the existing system, I can get a Parts and Smarts price from them which includes everything except for supply of wiring, installation of system or Permit.


The local AHJs require that if you are not a State Licensed EC or a State Licensed Fire Alarm Contractor, you cannot pull a permit to install any Fire Alarm systems. I have multiple county licenses which are all registered with the state which gives me an ER license with the state, but ERs are not allowed to permit or install Fire Alarm Systems.....this I can and will fix as I will just go and get my State License.

Therefore my fourth option is to hire the existing systems contractor to provide a complete turnkey package......

Even still I do not know why it is allowed for a company that has a system on someone's property to bail out on the liabilty of permitting and installing their own equipment.

Here' my latest example and the reason I want to try and change things here in Florida.

Burger joint in an existing strip mall complex which has a FA system with UL. We quoted a turnkey stand alone system with contacts to be connected to the existing house system excluding UL recertification of the existing system......$10K job quote

Prior to contract I am informed that I have to use the existing contractor for parts and smarts. Again with this setup I would be required to pull the permit and install the system which puts all of the liabilty on me for the future.....

I call for the price and ask them to give me a turnkey price (again as I am not State Licensed I cannot permit this)......they tell me they are too busy to install the system and will only provide a parts and smarts price for the project.......now I am essentially pushed out of getting this project. Then on top of all of that they send over a price for the P&S package and it's $9500 so once the wire, labor and permit are factored in the dang system costs over $15K.

Let's forget that I cannot pull the permit or install due to my license classification. Why should the UL holding FA contractor be allowed to only sell plans and parts. If thier system is in the building and thier parts have to be used they should have to install it and have all of the liabilty.

It's win win for them.......make profit on the Parts....get paid for plans.....get paid for recertification.....and on top of that all they also are charging for the labor profit they would have made if they installed it.

The EC in this case has all of the permitiing and liabilty while the FA contractor makes all of the $$.

Where would I start with trying to get this changed.....

 

[nhfire77]

WOW. Umm ok there is a bit too much here for me to digest all at once.

Let me ask this:

You can work on fire alarms, just can't pull permits?

You are required to have a UL certificated Fire alarm in a strip mall? That seems a bit much, I've heard some AHJs require it for large facilities but, a strip mall??!!!!!!??!!?

I personally have been on both end of "parts and smarts"(never heard it called that). It depends on an amicable relationship between all parties, if you don't like the deal, renegioate or bail. I understand that can be frustrating.

Have you contacted your local/state chapter of NBFAA, or the florida EC association? I think that would be a good place to gather infromation.

 

[satcom]

The problem on the fit up work in mini malls and small retail centers, is the existing alarm contract holder for the monitoring and on going maint holds on to their golden egg and would usually be willing to find a fish to take on all the alarm wiring and assume all the liability for the work, and let them contintue to collect the monthly and annual gold, and pay a low bid sub to do the work. when you do a fire job to make money, you want the whole package, install - monitoring and ongoing maint work.

 

[cdslotz]

I don't think the person who has the monitoring is locked in at all. Anyone can have the monitoring contract. Equipment can be proprietary, so only a Siemens, EST, Simplex, etc can expand, re-program that system. Some systems are not proprietary.
My question is why would you ever consider P&S in the first place?

 

[satcom]

I don't think the person who has the monitoring is locked in at all. Anyone can have the monitoring contract. Equipment can be proprietary, so only a Siemens, EST, Simplex, etc can expand, re-program that system. Some systems are not proprietary.
My question is why would you ever consider P&S in the first place?

Many of the small store fit up's are national chains and they are contracted for monitoring and maint by the big alarm companies, these companies will supply their panels and devices, and want a price on the wiring install only

 

[goldstar]

From my experience here's why proprietary FA systems cost so much to upgrade or add to :

• At the start, the company who was awarded the FA job had to drop their drawers and go in "cheap & dirty" as a sub-contractor to get the job
• Once the system was programmed and operating they had to certify that the system and its outlying devices will function properly. Having another contractor come in and add devices to their system without certifying that these devices are compatible voids the original certification
• Sending out a tech to open up the program to add new detection and notification devices costs quite a few $$ (and did I mention that they had to drop their drawers and have to take the job for practically peanuts at the beginning ?) The losses at the beginning have to be made up somewhere.
• If you didn't have the courtesy to purchase new equipment from the original supplier (another reason why the price to add new devices costs more from the certifying company), that FA tech now has to certify that these new devices are compatible with the existing system
• The original FA company holds the password and rights to the original program. No one else, including the manufacturer has the right to open that program without a release from the installing contractor.

Ask yourself this question :If you were installing switch gear or breaker panels would you want another contractor installing or adding non-compatible equipment to your installation while you still had a open permit out for the job ?

 

[ksmith846]

From my experience here's why proprietary FA systems cost so much to upgrade or add to :

• At the start, the company who was awarded the FA job had to drop their drawers and go in "cheap & dirty" as a sub-contractor to get the job
• Once the system was programmed and operating they had to certify that the system and its outlying devices will function properly. Having another contractor come in and add devices to their system without certifying that these devices are compatible voids the original certification
• Sending out a tech to open up the program to add new detection and notification devices costs quite a few $$ (and did I mention that they had to drop their drawers and have to take the job for practically peanuts at the beginning ?) The losses at the beginning have to be made up somewhere.
• If you didn't have the courtesy to purchase new equipment from the original supplier (another reason why the price to add new devices costs more from the certifying company), that FA tech now has to certify that these new devices are compatible with the existing system
• The original FA company holds the password and rights to the original program. No one else, including the manufacturer has the right to open that program without a release from the installing contractor.

Ask yourself this question :If you were installing switch gear or breaker panels would you want another contractor installing or adding non-compatible equipment to your installation while you still had a open permit out for the job ?

I truly do understand why and how they get to their pricing point and I have to admit that they should get paid as much as they can.

My biggest complaint is they should not be allowed to avoid the liabilty of installing their own equipment. If I call on them and ask for a turnkey price for them to do the entire install, they should not be allowed to say "no we are too busy right now to do any installs..we can only provide you parts and plans and you have to figure out how to get it installed"

 

[satcom]

I truly do understand why and how they get to their pricing point and I have to admit that they should get paid as much as they can.

My biggest complaint is they should not be allowed to avoid the liabilty of installing their own equipment. If I call on them and ask for a turnkey price for them to do the entire install, they should not be allowed to say "no we are too busy right now to do any installs..we can only provide you parts and plans and you have to figure out how to get it installed"

It all comes down to liability, and a large percent of the EC's bidding wiring for the mini malls and small dollar stores do not carry a liability policy with error and omissions, and limited liability contracts, they are playing with fire, and many drop their draws with pricing to take these crazy risks