Fire Alarm System Testing, Inspection and Maintenance

[nhfire77]

Do any of you have a pricing schedule/formula for fire alarm inspection?

I mean do you flat rate the building based on size and complexity?

Do you take the total device count and use a multiplier?

Sometimes I struggle on what the true cost should be. I know what it is for two guys and the cost of the testing equipment but I am looking to see what others do.

 

[nhfire77]

anyone with similar experience?

 

[ohm]

anyone with similar experience?

I've done some installs on T & M then turned it over to a buddy for testing, certification & maintenance.

I've heard a state master (EC) is certified to do it all, but with the insurance, liability & specialized equipment required I don't think it's wise to take it on.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

We do not perform the testing, that is performed by the building departments.

We do inspections of equipment and wiring. We charge a per item charge, with a minimum fee.

I believe most building departments charge the same way...except they get paid up front and we wait until the inspection.

 

[smo]

First of all, make sure you are licensed are certified by your state to do this. Most states don't allow just anyone to sign off on an alarm. Most states have a separate inspection license/certificate that is required besides and EC license.

Secondly, if you are going to do this, make sure you do it right. I get very angry with companies that come in and pass an alarm that should have either failed or had repairs. I will report those companies to the fire marshal every time. Too many people just pass them off so the business will be happy with them as an inspector and give future work. Fire alarms are serious business, and should not be treated lightly.

To do a proper inspection of the FACP itself should take about a full hour. You need to do your resistance checks, ground fault checks, calculations, proper battery load tests, primary and secondary comm checks, lamp test, functionality tests, etc, etc. I've seen people spend 10 minutes on the FACP. THAT IS NOT A PROPER INSPECTION per NFPA72.

So, considering that all systems should have the FACP, at least one smoke, and usually at least one pull station, that should be your minimum charge - about 1.5 hours IMO.

Then I usually add about 5-8 minutes per device to do a proper test of those as well. Again, a visual inspection of detectors IS NOT an inspection.

Best of luck to you, but please make sure you are licensed to do it, and do it right.

 

[nhfire77]

First of all, make sure you are licensed are certified by your state to do this. Most states don't allow just anyone to sign off on an alarm. Most states have a separate inspection license/certificate that is required besides and EC license.

Secondly, if you are going to do this, make sure you do it right. I get very angry with companies that come in and pass an alarm that should have either failed or had repairs. I will report those companies to the fire marshal every time. Too many people just pass them off so the business will be happy with them as an inspector and give future work. Fire alarms are serious business, and should not be treated lightly.

To do a proper inspection of the FACP itself should take about a full hour. You need to do your resistance checks, ground fault checks, calculations, proper battery load tests, primary and secondary comm checks, lamp test, functionality tests, etc, etc. I've seen people spend 10 minutes on the FACP. THAT IS NOT A PROPER INSPECTION per NFPA72.

So, considering that all systems should have the FACP, at least one smoke, and usually at least one pull station, that should be your minimum charge - about 1.5 hours IMO.

Then I usually add about 5-8 minutes per device to do a proper test of those as well. Again, a visual inspection of detectors IS NOT an inspection.

Best of luck to you, but please make sure you are licensed to do it, and do it right.

I understand and employ the chapter 10 testing procedures. I was not asking how to test, I understand the time and procedures regarding a test and inspection.

I know most don't follow the proper testing procedures correctly, but, reporting them? Unless you know for a fact that the deficiency existed at the previous test you are out of line. I would be pretty pissed off to get a call from an AHJ telling me that I missed something, when the test was done 11 months ago and I haven't been back to the site since.

I've inspected a lot of systems that I don't regularly maintain. We find the issues report to the owner then someone else makes the repairs. That's because we perform compliant testing, and the guy making the repairs doesn't know/cannot. We charge a premium for our services and the customer knows they are getting what they pay for.

An inspection is a snapshot of the systems overall heath/condition.

Once I leave and another company touches it, things have changed. I know you need log book to track it, to hold the correct person responsible for the part of the system they touched, but its not always there.

"A visual inspection of detectors is not an inspection."

I disagree with you on this.

We test 20% of heat detectors each year, total testing completed in 5 years. I visually inspect the other 80%. Minimum 2 per IDC. NFPA 72 10.4.4.4.1 thru 10.4.4.4.3

 

[smo]

It is not out of line to report an incorrect inspection, or a system which is not in compliance. I don't know about your area, but in my area any problem with a system cannot be reported only to the owner. All problems must also be reported to the AHJ per law.

A simple check with the building manager or maintenance manager will clue you into how old a problem is. Another clue is when you have seen the problem at the building during an earlier job, then come back months or years later, and the problem is still there. I do lots of recurring work, and if I come back a year later, and a problem is still there, I will report the inspecting company to the AHJ because I KNOW that they looked the other way on that job.

It is absolutely NOT out of line to report anything you think is a hazard. It is out of line to to ignore problems.

You said you disagreed that a visual inspection is not an inspection, yet you indicate that you do functional testing. Why? Why do any functional testing if a visual inspection is adequate? Please explain.

There is no need for you to get defensive when I initially commented on doing it right. I never said you didn't do it right, I simply said many do not. Then I encouraged EVERYONE who does these inspections to PLEASE DO THEM RIGHT. What is wrong with that? Is there some unwritten rule that we should refrain from asking people to do a good job on things?

 

[nhfire77]

It is not out of line to report an incorrect inspection, or a system which is not in compliance. I don't know about your area, but in my area any problem with a system cannot be reported only to the owner. All problems must also be reported to the AHJ per law.

I agree, however, unless you are sure that testing company screwed up, running off to the AHJ to report this is out of line. Basically, you should have verifiable proof, such as your example below.

A simple check with the building manager or maintenance manager will clue you into how old a problem is. Another clue is when you have seen the problem at the building during an earlier job, then come back months or years later, and the problem is still there. I do lots of recurring work, and if I come back a year later, and a problem is still there, I will report the inspecting company to the AHJ because I KNOW that they looked the other way on that job.

Yes I agree, and to that; I don't look the other way, I tag it and submit a report the owner and AHJ. I wont make a phone call to the AHJ about a horn strobe being out, but if communication was down, or a detection device was bad and I didn't the authorization to replace it, then yes. Normally, in that case I explain to the mangaer its my duty to report it, unless I repair it now.

It is absolutely NOT out of line to report anything you think is a hazard. It is out of line to to ignore problems.

Just becuase you think its a hazard, does not deem it so.

You said you disagreed that a visual inspection is not an inspection, yet you indicate that you do functional testing. Why? Why do any functional testing if a visual inspection is adequate? Please explain.

Please reread my post. I functionally test 20% of heats (10.4.4.4 to 10.4.4.4.3) each year, the other 80% require visual inspection (10.3.1).

Therefore a visual inspection is an inspection

You stated in post #5 "Again, a visual inspection of detectors IS NOT an inspection."

There is no need for you to get defensive when I initially commented on doing it right. I never said you didn't do it right, I simply said many do not. Then I encouraged EVERYONE who does these inspections to PLEASE DO THEM RIGHT. What is wrong with that? Is there some unwritten rule that we should refrain from asking people to do a good job on things?

This was not defensive. It was airing an opinion about those who proselytize about how an inspection makes you liable for anything gone wrong after you were there. It is just not true. If, I do my job right, and follow the code and take steps to make it safe or notify who I must that its not, that's all I can do. I do not accept responsibility for anything outside that, my "duty to act" as a lawyer might refer to it as, has been fulfilled.

If you are a professional you do it right, if not you are a hack.

Peter D, anything to add to my last comment about hacks?

 

[smo]

Just becuase you think its a hazard, does not deem it so.

Correct, but it is not your call or my call to make, it is the opinion of the AHJ to decide. I argue that it is irresponsible to ignore something you think *MAY* be a problem. You should report the potential problem to the AHJ, and let him decide. Reporting something that could be a problem is simply responsible.

If you saw a potential crime occurring, would you not report it to the police and let them investigate, determine if a crime was committed, and take appropriate action from there? I'm not saying you should pull your gun (although I would argue that there are times that is appropriate, but that's for another forum...), tie the guys up and lock them up yourself, simply that reporting something to the proper authorities is a GOOD thing.

...those who proselytize about how an inspection makes you liable for anything gone wrong after you were there. It is just not true. If, I do my job right, and follow the code and take steps to make it safe or notify who I must that its not, that's all I can do. I do not accept responsibility for anything outside that, my "duty to act" as a lawyer might refer to it as, has been fulfilled.

I NEVER said you could do more then that. I simply stated that people need to do it right, and encouraged everyone to do so. I never said that anyone is responsible for things that happen after they have inspected. That is not true, you are only responsible for what you do [or do not] do.

I did, however, say that you have a responsibility to notify the proper personnel of problems you see on a system. Now, I am not saying if you a minor problem that has no effect on the performance or life safety attributes of a system that you should go running off to the AHJ, but when you notice something vitally wrong or hazards about a system, you have a professional and moral responsibility to report that, for the safety of all building occupants.

If you are a professional you do it right, if not you are a hack.

I agree 100%