peter d
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
FlyFish said:
Maybe where you live...but generally speaking in RI and MA that is not the case. The municipal fire alarm system is owned and maintained by the municipality.
Fire Alarm systems installers
- Thread starter moresi
- Start date
- Status
Maybe where you live...but generally speaking in RI and MA that is not the case. The municipal fire alarm system is owned and maintained by the municipality.
- Location
- Massachusetts
George Stolz said:
It is, like the 1880s but it is extremely reliable and is quite well designed. It does not need electricity to operate, the signal line power comes from the fire station. It can use a ground rod to get the signal back to the fire station if there is a broken wire in the circuit. That said it is only capable of sending one alarm signal from one building.
The radio master boxes are capable of a lot more, they can send alarms and troubles some actually provide the FD with the same info displayed on the FACP.
peter d
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
iwire said:
Some cities require the master box to be bonded to the municipal water system, because they use the water main system as their back-up "conductor."
This assumes a metallic water main system of course.
electricalperson
Senior Member
- Location
- massachusetts
most master boxes i install in buildings are always radio. they are required by the towns near me i believe
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Service Manager
Learn something new every day.
Where are these systems used, geographically? Is it a New England thing?
Where are these systems used, geographically? Is it a New England thing?
peter d
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
George Stolz said:
I would imagine so, seeing that Gamewell, and the main company that produces radio master boxes are both based in the greater Boston area.
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Service Manager
Isn't that a heck of a coincidence?
Edit to add:
It reminds me of something a fellow I worked with said about a certain town's requirement to mount a strobe connected to the smokes on the face of a dwelling unit, facing the street: "What do they need that for? Just look for the house with all their people standing in the peejays in the street!"
Edit to add:
It reminds me of something a fellow I worked with said about a certain town's requirement to mount a strobe connected to the smokes on the face of a dwelling unit, facing the street: "What do they need that for? Just look for the house with all their people standing in the peejays in the street!"
Last edited:
R Bob
Senior Member
- Location
- Chantilly, VA
George Stolz said:Learn something new every day.
Where are these systems used, geographically? Is it a New England thing?
Not necessarilly a New England thing, but that's probably where it originated (older cities like Boston, New York, Chicago).
A lot of these systems have been or are currently being converted to digital systems (addressable alarms as we know them).
Over my career, I have done a lot of government work and found that these systems are prevalent at virtually every military base I have ever worked at.
In fact, I recall installing "state of the art" alarm systems and having to interface them with these telegraph systems.
From what I understand, the telegraph system is very simple and quite reliable.
Moresi, the SK5208 is an intelligent panel so if it were an initiating device (Smoke, Heat, or Duct detector, or my guess a manual Pull station) going into alarm then the display should have an "address" of the detector that caused the alarm. Also depending on the year model of the panel you can connect to panel with laptop via USB or serial, Silent Knight has a software package called SKSS (Silent Knight software suite) available on their website for DL, you can retrieve the Alarm history and see if it's the same Detector / device causing the alarm.
The SK 5208 is an intelligent panel. If it were an initiating device (Smoke, Heat or Duct Detector or a manual pull station) then the display should show the "Address or Point number" and if programmed a description or location of the device. if you don't know which device went into alarm, go to the alarm history and see if it's the same device going into Alarm, if anything I'd be leaning toward a manual pull station since it has a physical switch, the others mentioned use either resistance or a Photo-Electric eye.
MichaelGP3
Senior Member
- Location
- San Francisco bay area
- Occupation
- Fire Alarm Technician
Stallzer said:
The last time I looked, the SK-5208 was a conventional panel. It annunciates by zone, not device.
gadfly56
Senior Member
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
MichaelGP3 said:
Perhaps he was thinking of the 5820XL or the 5808?
Back in the "old days"....
Fire and security systems used "relays" and were not prone to lightning caused false alarms.
Then they came out with the "transistor" and these are very sensitive to any little momentary "blip" of electrical contacts as well as lightning induced current in building wiring.
Relays, if energized, will remain closed for a moment upon losing power, then will open. The coil maintains its charge for a moment upon losing power and it takes time for the mechanical contact arm to disconnect the contacts.
Transistors on the other hand will activate instantly!
Then you have all that wiring running around a building acting as an "antenna" - all feeding into that sensitive transistor (integrated circuit chip).
Basically what happened with the introduction of transistor controlled fire and security systems was a ton of false alarms during every lightning storm.
One way to fix this is to isolate the building wiring from those sensitive transistors using "relays". 12 vdc running on the wiring loop powering a relay in the alarm box. Lose power to the relay, then the contacts from the relay then trip the zone in the alarm box. So basically the sensitive wiring is contained within the alarm metal box.
The only problem with this is the wiring is not "monitored" for a short or trouble condition as is done with an end of line resistor on the zone. This would monitor the wiring for a short or open for the entire length of the wiring if installed properly.
So the next option would be a "faraday cage" type thing. Use of shielded wiring throughout the building and the shields grounded at one end, should prevent induced current in the wiring from lightning.
Faraday cage...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday_cage
Fire and security systems used "relays" and were not prone to lightning caused false alarms.
Then they came out with the "transistor" and these are very sensitive to any little momentary "blip" of electrical contacts as well as lightning induced current in building wiring.
Relays, if energized, will remain closed for a moment upon losing power, then will open. The coil maintains its charge for a moment upon losing power and it takes time for the mechanical contact arm to disconnect the contacts.
Transistors on the other hand will activate instantly!
Then you have all that wiring running around a building acting as an "antenna" - all feeding into that sensitive transistor (integrated circuit chip).
Basically what happened with the introduction of transistor controlled fire and security systems was a ton of false alarms during every lightning storm.
One way to fix this is to isolate the building wiring from those sensitive transistors using "relays". 12 vdc running on the wiring loop powering a relay in the alarm box. Lose power to the relay, then the contacts from the relay then trip the zone in the alarm box. So basically the sensitive wiring is contained within the alarm metal box.
The only problem with this is the wiring is not "monitored" for a short or trouble condition as is done with an end of line resistor on the zone. This would monitor the wiring for a short or open for the entire length of the wiring if installed properly.
So the next option would be a "faraday cage" type thing. Use of shielded wiring throughout the building and the shields grounded at one end, should prevent induced current in the wiring from lightning.
Faraday cage...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday_cage
troubleshooting fire alarm
troubleshooting fire alarm
To Avoid any charge form the FD, set the system on test mode until you find the problem. In your case, notified them what you're doing. They love that.
Also check , if you system is wire this way, for what we call here a Phanton Ground, which happen went you have the F/A wiring mix with the building power system.
Induction or any problem with the building wiring, report the device in trouble and activate the F/A system.
If you install an annunciator in your system, it shoulds report the problem , what and were . EST is a great system and very reliable.
All this saying with out knowing a the details in your specific situation. I hope some of it can help you.
troubleshooting fire alarm
To Avoid any charge form the FD, set the system on test mode until you find the problem. In your case, notified them what you're doing. They love that.
Also check , if you system is wire this way, for what we call here a Phanton Ground, which happen went you have the F/A wiring mix with the building power system.
Induction or any problem with the building wiring, report the device in trouble and activate the F/A system.
If you install an annunciator in your system, it shoulds report the problem , what and were . EST is a great system and very reliable.
All this saying with out knowing a the details in your specific situation. I hope some of it can help you.
Weaver Road
Member
- Location
- Willington, CT
Slow Down!
Slow Down!
Before you go and put the system in TEST mode "until you find a problem," consider that you are now removing the very function that the system is there for: detecting and alerting. Depending on the configuration and programming, you may only get a light on the panel while in test mode.
So, when the building burns down and the residents don't know it's on fire, and the fire department doesn't bill you for the false alarm because they don't get an alarm.............what now?
Plus, depending on the jurisdiction, you will need a "fire watch" ($$$$$$) to read the panel if an alarm comes in, or you may even have to relocate the residents/occupants ($$$$$$$$$$). Many codes require significant alternatives once the system is down or disabled for 4 hours.
Slow Down!
Before you go and put the system in TEST mode "until you find a problem," consider that you are now removing the very function that the system is there for: detecting and alerting. Depending on the configuration and programming, you may only get a light on the panel while in test mode.
So, when the building burns down and the residents don't know it's on fire, and the fire department doesn't bill you for the false alarm because they don't get an alarm.............what now?
Plus, depending on the jurisdiction, you will need a "fire watch" ($$$$$$) to read the panel if an alarm comes in, or you may even have to relocate the residents/occupants ($$$$$$$$$$). Many codes require significant alternatives once the system is down or disabled for 4 hours.
JohnE
Senior Member
- Location
- Milford, MA
Just a thought. Is it possible that central station is getting a code from the system that you have not told them how to act upon when received? Did you check to see what the code was when they dispatched? Happened to me once when one of the contact ID codes was not on the template. If they don't have the code on file, they default to dispatching authoritys.
- Status