Fire Alarm versus Fire Protection

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charlie b

charlie b

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Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Can anyone tell me whether I am right in believing that designing a Fire Alarm (FA) system is outside the purview of a licensed Fire Protection Engineer (FPE)? I see the FA as being all about wires and the FPE as being all about pipes and pumps. When I lay out an FA system for a project, it is declared to be a general summary of requirements. The final design is done by a manufacturer's representative. But does a FPE need to sign off on the final design of a FA system? I think not. What say ye?
 
There are lots of FPEs that I know that are very knowledgeable about fire alarm design. But some are only suppression or fire stop / fire rating type FPEs.

Some EEs know nothing about fire alarm. Some only prepare performance based design that can get the basics of a bid across, but no permit.

I happen to take FA design to the permit level, then leave it to the vendor to prepare shop drawings for the manufacturer specific related detail.

So, you know, it depends.
 
I took my PE exam long, long, ago in a discipline far, far, away, but here I am doing fire alarm design by dint of experience. In those states that offer exams in different disciplines, as far as I know, Fire Protection encompasses both sprinkler and fire alarm design. Nebraska, Connecticut, and Delaware, among others, have schools offering degrees in Fire Engineering or Fire Science. In NJ, it's still the case that your practice is not necessarily limited to the field in which you tested, subject to the usual admonishment not to practice outside your area of expertise. So, FPE's with a degree in the discipline and who tested in the discipline are presumptively qualified to design either fire alarm, sprinkler, or both. It is more typical that they gravitate to one or the other.

This is also the first time I've heard of engineers submitting more or less a skeleton design to be fleshed out by the manufacturer. Is this really widespread?

For permit drawings in NJ, you would need a PE or possibly a NICET level III tech to sign off. I think the later is technically allowed but a lot of AHJ's here would balk at it.
 
gadfly56 said:
I took my PE exam long, long, ago in a discipline far, far, away, but here I am doing fire alarm design by dint of experience.
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i understand that you went to school in Hoboken in the days when it was pretty much on fire anyway. :lol:

Although now out of all of our price range.

Experience is the best teacher.
 
ron said:
i understand that you went to school in Hoboken in the days when it was pretty much on fire anyway. :lol:

Although now out of all of our price range.

Experience is the best teacher.
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Brother, you ain't joking. My entire ride was the cost of a single semester now. I've got two sons, one with serious engineering tendencies, and I have no idea how I'd afford to send him there. I've pretty much told them to find a sport and get really good at it because it may be their only ticket to the show.
 
gadfly56 said:
This is also the first time I've heard of engineers submitting more or less a skeleton design to be fleshed out by the manufacturer. Is this really widespread?
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I have worked for at least a half dozen engineering firms, and they all did the FA design in this way. We also include a "performance specification" that gives more requirements, and explicitly calls upon the vendor to "provide" (that term meaning "furnish and install") a complete FA system that complies with the applicable codes.
 
charlie b said:
I have worked for at least a half dozen engineering firms, and they all did the FA design in this way. We also include a "performance specification" that gives more requirements, and explicitly calls upon the vendor to "provide" (that term meaning "furnish and install") a complete FA system that complies with the applicable codes.
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Charlie, Does your performance specification have enough on it to get a permit?

For example in my local jurisdiction, they list to get a permit you need (although they are a little flexible on some detail):

907.1.1 Construction documents.
Construction documents for fire alarm systems shall be submitted for review and approval to the department and the Fire Department prior to system installation. Construction documents shall include, but not be limited to, all of the following:
1.A floor plan that indicates the use of all rooms.
2.Locations of alarm-initiating devices.
3.Locations of alarm notification appliances, including candela ratings for visible alarm notification appliances.
4.Location of fire command center, fire alarm control units, transponders and notification power supplies.
5. Location of remote annunciators.
6. Location of all primary, secondary and local sources of power.
7. Fire alarm riser diagram showing all fire alarm devices indicated on the floor plans. Quantities of devices on the floor plans shall match the quantities indicated on the riser diagram.Riser diagram shall include class and style of circuits and levels of survivability.
The riser diagram shall show the interface of fire safety control functions.
8.Copies of any variances granted by the department or the Fire Department.
9.Legend of all fire alarm symbols and abbreviations used.
10.Design criteria for fire alarm audibility in various occupancies indicated on plans.
11.Fire alarm sequence of operation for the fire alarm system in a matrix format.
12.Classification of the central supervising station
 
ron said:
Charlie, Does your performance specification have enough on it to get a permit?

For example in my local jurisdiction, they list to get a permit you need (although they are a little flexible on some detail):

907.1.1 Construction documents.
Construction documents for fire alarm systems shall be submitted for review and approval to the department and the Fire Department prior to system installation. Construction documents shall include, but not be limited to, all of the following:
1.A floor plan that indicates the use of all rooms.
2.Locations of alarm-initiating devices.
3.Locations of alarm notification appliances, including candela ratings for visible alarm notification appliances.
4.Location of fire command center, fire alarm control units, transponders and notification power supplies.
5. Location of remote annunciators.
6. Location of all primary, secondary and local sources of power.
7. Fire alarm riser diagram showing all fire alarm devices indicated on the floor plans. Quantities of devices on the floor plans shall match the quantities indicated on the riser diagram.Riser diagram shall include class and style of circuits and levels of survivability.
The riser diagram shall show the interface of fire safety control functions.
8.Copies of any variances granted by the department or the Fire Department.
9.Legend of all fire alarm symbols and abbreviations used.
10.Design criteria for fire alarm audibility in various occupancies indicated on plans.
11.Fire alarm sequence of operation for the fire alarm system in a matrix format.
12.Classification of the central supervising station
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That's pretty much the same as the model code and the NJ version. Now I understand why my current company gets so much work; we have a dedicated Fire/Life Safety discipline group in our MEP firm.
 
ron said:
Charlie, Does your performance specification have enough on it to get a permit?
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Between the drawings and the spec section, most of that information is covered. But the intent is that the vendor supply the final design for the contractor to install and for the AHJ to use as the basis for the permit.

 
charlie b said:
Between the drawings and the spec section, most of that information is covered. But the intent is that the vendor supply the final design for the contractor to install and for the AHJ to use as the basis for the permit.
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So these are bid drawings, not permit drawings?
 
gadfly56 said:
So these are bid drawings, not permit drawings?
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Yes, so long as we are talking about the FA design. It is up to the successful contractor to obtain the services of a FA System vendor to prepare the final design and submit it for permit.

For the power and lighting design, the contractor can take the design package that I sent out for bid, and submit it directly for permit. I guess a key difference is that my seal appears on the power and lighting drawings, but not on the FA drawings.

 
charlie b said:
For the power and lighting design, the contractor can take the design package that I sent out for bid, and submit it directly for permit. I guess a key difference is that my seal appears on the power and lighting drawings, but not on the FA drawings.

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And the owner does mind I guess? I worry that they will go to the EC for the rest of the SS drawings too and loop me right out of a job. Lots of folks will S&S for $/sheet even though they are not supposed to, or the EC has a PE on staff.

My fear is we will all get sucked into design-build firms and not be autonomous anymore.
 
webcrest said:
[FONT=&quot]Basically, a fire alarm acts as an ionization detector where air gets ionized as it heats.[/FONT]
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So wrong in so many ways.
Any detector or alarm can be based on temperature rise, on opacity of smoke (photoelectric type) or the presence of ions created by the combustion process, not simply heat (ionization type.)

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
 
gadfly56 said:
For permit drawings in NJ, you would need a PE or possibly a NICET level III tech to sign off. I think the later is technically allowed but a lot of AHJ's here would balk at it.
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NICET licensing is not recognized as an approved designer in NJ N.J.A.C. 5:23-2.15 articles (b) and (f) vii
 
I am a registered engineer and an EE. Have been designing FA systems my entire career and submitted sealed drawings and specs on state and local regulated projects mostly without the need to use a FPE. I am sure it may vary with some states. I have not submitted a design as strictly a performance specification. But some specifications can required additional levels of documentation for shop drawings such as battery calculations, full and complete riser diagrams, fire alarm operation matrixes, etc., that are not necessarily shown on my drawings. But I have had to provide all of those on my drawings for some jurisdictions. Federal projects vary. The Army Corps of Engineers requires that an FPE seals fire alarm drawings. The VA does not.
 
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