Fire Alarm wiring question.

[dc]

We have had a upgraded Simplex FA system installed at our college. They installed "Mapnet" wiring which is an 18ga cmp pair to talk to the heat and smoke detectors. When I opened a ceiling tile I found most of the wiring not supported and just loose above the tiles.I know code says to support no more than 48" apart. My question is where the wire enters the 4"x4" box which holds the addressable smoke detector. The contractor says you do not need to add any stain-relief at the point it enters the metal back of box at 1/2"knock-out. What is the method for having this wire go thru a metal box ? Is their code on this?
Thanks in advance.
Dan

 

[websparky]

Re: Fire Alarm wiring question.

Hi Dan,

Often times the FA guys think the NEC doesn't apply to them because long ago no one enforced it.
Here is what youwill have to read for them!

760.52 (A) NPLFA Wiring Methods and Materials. Installation shall be in accordance with 760.25, and conductors shall be solid or stranded copper.

760.25 NPLFA Circuit Wiring Methods.
Installation of non?power-limited fire alarm circuits shall be in accordance with 110.3(B), 300.11(A), 300.15, 300.17, and other appropriate articles of Chapter 3.

300.4 Protection Against Physical Damage.
Where subject to physical damage, conductors shall be adequately protected.

314.17 Conductors Entering Boxes, Conduit Bodies, or Fittings.
Conductors entering boxes, conduit bodies, or fittings shall be protected from abrasion and shall comply with 314.17(A) through (D).

 

[websparky]

Re: Fire Alarm wiring question.

Here is the power-limited wiring:

(B) PLFA Wiring Methods and Materials. Power-limited fire alarm conductors and cables described in 760.71 shall be installed as detailed in 760.52(B)(1), (2), or (3) of this section. Devices shall be installed in accordance with 110.3(B), 300.11(A), and 300.15.

 

[peter d]

Re: Fire Alarm wiring question.

I agree that what Dan describes is a hack job and would never in a million years pass inspection where I live.


Dan, check your local codes too, as FA systems often fall under the jurisdiction of the local fire marshall and/or other authorities.

Edited because Dave posted the PLFA section.

[ December 02, 2004, 04:31 PM: Message edited by: peter d ]

 

[websparky]

Re: Fire Alarm wiring question.

Hi Pete,

The NEC covers the installation of FA system wiring.

2002 NEC
90.2 Scope.
(A) Covered. This Code covers the installation of electric conductors, electric equipment, signaling and communications conductors and equipment, and fiber optic cables and raceways for the following:
(1) Public and private premises, including buildings, structures, mobile homes, recreational vehicles, and floating buildings
(2) Yards, lots, parking lots, carnivals, and industrial substations
FPN: For additional information concerning such installations in an industrial or multibuilding complex, see the ANSI C2-1997, National Electrical Safety Code.
(3) Installations of conductors and equipment that connect to the supply of electricity
(4) Installations used by the electric utility, such as office buildings, warehouses, garages, machine shops, and recreational buildings, that are not an integral part of a generating plant, substation, or control center

760.1 Scope.
This article covers the installation of wiring and equipment of fire alarm systems including all circuits controlled and powered by the fire alarm system.

I do not know of any Fire Marshals that are also electrical inspectors! Typically the Electrical Inspector invites the Fire Marshal to the inspection so he can witness the tests and cover the local requirements for the fire department such as signage and stuff like that.

 

[iwire]

Re: Fire Alarm wiring question.

Originally posted by websparky:
I do not know of any Fire Marshals that are also electrical inspectors! Typically the Electrical Inspector invites the Fire Marshal to the inspection so he can witness the tests and cover the local requirements for the fire department such as signage and stuff like that.

Dave again we must considerer that each area is different. Here the electrical inspector is not present for fire alarm inspections, the electrical inspector rarely even looks at the fire alarm system.

Each city and town here has a Fire official that inspects the fire alarm system, it might be a Chief or a Lieutenant etc.

I do not mean just for operation but the actual installation methods.

While I have your attention what are the NEC support requirements for PLFA cable?

 

[iwire]

Re: Fire Alarm wiring question.

Originally posted by peter d:
Dan, check your local codes too, as FA systems often fall under the jurisdiction of the local fire marshall.

Peter that has been my experience in MA & RI, I have not done a FA system in CT.

 

[peter d]

Re: Fire Alarm wiring question.

Bob,

While I have your attention what are the NEC support requirements for PLFA cable?

Maybe I'm missing something but it appears that there aren't any.

 

[iwire]

Re: Fire Alarm wiring question.

Originally posted by peter d:

While I have your attention what are the NEC support requirements for PLFA cable?

Maybe I'm missing something but it appears that there aren't any.

Exactly.

While 300.11(A) tells us they shall be supported they do not say how or at what intervals.

 

[peter d]

Re: Fire Alarm wiring question.

OK, here's one for debate, does the definition of a "device" include cables?

 

[websparky]

Re: Fire Alarm wiring question.

Bob and Pete,

While I have your attention what are the NEC support requirements for PLFA cable?

OK, While I have both of your attention, look at the post above at 4:30pm.

And then read:

760.6 Mechanical Execution of Work.
Fire alarm circuits shall be installed in a neat and workmanlike manner. Cables and conductors installed exposed on the surface of ceiling and sidewalls shall be supported by structural components of the building in such a manner that the cable or conductors will not be damaged by normal building use. Such cables shall be attached to structural components by straps, staples, hangers, or similar fittings designed and installed so as not to damage the cable. The installation shall also conform with 300.4(D).

 

[websparky]

Re: Fire Alarm wiring question.

Each city and town here has a Fire official that inspects the fire alarm system, it might be a Chief or a Lieutenant etc.

I do not mean just for operation but the actual installation methods.

What code or by what authority does the Fire Department inspect electrical installations?

Certainly there must be something written that relieves the building department from this electrical installation inspection duty.

Does the Fire Department also inspect sprinkler installations too?

 

[iwire]

Re: Fire Alarm wiring question.

Dave what are the distances between supports and from terminations?

 

[iwire]

Re: Fire Alarm wiring question.

Originally posted by websparky:
Does the Fire Department also inspect sprinkler installations too?

Yes.

 

[peter d]

Re: Fire Alarm wiring question.

Dave,

What code or by what authority does the Fire Department inspect electrical installations?

I will tell you what I am familiar with, the code of my home state.

Rhode Island Fire Safety Code

It is a pretty boring and tedious read, but it clearly spells out that FA systems are regulated by the State Fire Marshall, not building code or electrical inspectors.

(Amd) 1.6 Enforcement.

This Code shall be administered by the Fire Safety Code Board of Appeal & Review and enforced by the State Fire Marshal.

 

[websparky]

Re: Fire Alarm wiring question.

Pete,

I looked at the document and it is the same here in Ohio.
No where in that document can you find system installation inspections.
The only inspections mention are the usual ones for performance.

 

[iwire]

Re: Fire Alarm wiring question.

Originally posted by websparky:
What code or by what authority does the Fire Department inspect electrical installations?

780 CMR 903.4 Acceptance: In accordance with the
 provisions of 780 CMR 120, a Certificate of
 Occupancy shall not issue until the building official
 and the head of the fire department or their designees
 have witnessed a satisfactory functional test of all fire
 protection systems, installed in accordance with the
 approved fire protection construction documents. All
 fire protection systems shall be tested in accordance
 with the applicable provisions of 780 CMR and
 NFPA Standards and approved testing criteria and
 operational sequence as submitted in 780 CMR
 903.1.1, items 1.b and c. In addition, the following
 documents and/or information shall be
 simultaneously submitted to the building official and
 head of the fire department or their designees prior to
 the witnessing of the operational fire protection
 system(s) testing:

It goes on....

Now it does say building official but it also says "or their designees" this ends up meaning in MA that the building dept designates the FD.

To install a FA system I must pull a permit from the FD, give the FD the FA prints for approval etc.

Reading more the sections it looks like the law is written to have both the building dept and the fire dept share equally in the inspection of all fire systems. The reality is the FDs get pretty upset if the building dept says anything.

Call it politics or whatever, it is what it is.

Bob

 

[peter d]

Re: Fire Alarm wiring question.

Dave,

Aha! That is where the local authorities come into play.

ROUGH INSPECTION: the Fire Alarm Division, not the electrical inspector, performs rough
inspection of the fire alarm system piping and wiring. All rough inspections shall be completed
before the installations of any walls or ceilings that would conceal the wiring and tubing and
before any indicating or initiating devices are installed.

Taken from Cranston [RI] Fire Department - Fire Alarm Division
Fire Alarm System Requirements

It is up to the FD in every town or city in RI to inspect the wiring and installation of the FA system. The electrical inspector only inspects the branch circuit to the control panel, and that is it.

[ December 02, 2004, 09:21 PM: Message edited by: peter d ]

 

[iwire]

Re: Fire Alarm wiring question.

Originally posted by websparky:
Pete,

I looked at the document and it is the same here in Ohio.
No where in that document can you find system installation inspections.
The only inspections mention are the usual ones for performance.

Dave have you installed a fire alarm system in RI?

I have many times, let me assure you the FDs handle the installation issues. When I have the electrical inspectors out for rough wall inspections they might casually mention that the FD will want this or that but it will not hold up the sign off. The electrical inspectors kind of have quiet chuckle to themselves if you do not listen to there advice.

The departmental rivalries run very deep and in Providence the FDs have a much bigger stick.

Questions a RI FD will ask or issues they look for

1)Did you use wire nuts?

2)How far apart are the initiating circuit raceways from the notification circuit raceways?

3)Did you use insulated throat connectors?

4)Did you follow the mandated color code?

5)Where are your battery calculations?

6)How far apart is the outgoing raceway from the incoming raceway (Class A Loops)

This is much more than performance testing.

Bob

 

[peter d]

Re: Fire Alarm wiring question.

Bob,

Don't forget the pack of cigarettes to test the smoke detectors on the final.

The departmental rivalries run very deep and in Providence the FDs have a much bigger stick.

You aren't joking about that. They have you trembling in fear on the final inspections..ok...I'm exaggerating a little, but FAs are serious business.

So Bob, how do you do things in the Bay State?

[ December 02, 2004, 10:35 PM: Message edited by: peter d ]