Fire and Security sharing conduits

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iwire

iwire

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Is this allowed?

BurgFASameConduit.jpg


What we have here is an emergency egress gate at a garden center.

Obviously you can see the fire alarm horn strobe and pull station bit the rest is security and controlled release wiring.

Out of the bottom of the pull station you can see a small armored cable going to the door contact that trips the bugler alarm.

From the pull on up to the H/S then it goes left into anther horn strobe that is triggered when you push on the door release bar. From there it also supplies a magnetic door lock that holds the door closed during the 15 second wait time.

The fire alarm conductors continue to the left and down to the two gang bell box then into the EMT still with security wiring back to wards the building.

I assumed this would be against code but it's not like this is in some hick town and it is not the only store in this chain to be set up like this.
 
Correct me if i am wrong, but if the system is an addressable system (power limited) then it needs to be seperated.(760.136) If not then it can be with other systems pending the voltage rating of the cable.

Rick
 
RUWired said:
Correct me if i am wrong, but if the system is an addressable system (power limited) then it needs to be seperated.(760.136) If not then it can be with other systems pending the voltage rating of the cable.
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The fire alarm system in this outdoor garden center is conventional until it gets back inside the main building. At that point it hits an addressable monitor module and becomes part of the inside addressable system.

In either case both are power limited. :smile:
 
It looks like 760.139 would permit this installation assuming that the security system is a Class 2 or 3 system.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
It looks like 760.139 would permit this installation assuming that the security system is a Class 2 or 3 system.
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Thanks Don and all that responded.

I will just think of this as an extremely poor design. As it stands now when the security contractor has to replace the magnetic door contact they will have to remove the pull station to do it requiring the fire alarm system to be taken off line. In this area that is often something that must be scheduled ahead of time with the local fire dept as most cities and towns around here directly monitor the FACPs of commercial buildings. That monitoring is in addition to any central station monitoring the owner may choose to have.
 
RUWired said:
I would think the card swipe is a claass 2 wiring but the mag lock is a class one 24 volt system.

Rick
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It might be, I will try to look at a power supply next time I get a chance. But I do know it is very low current, it is supplied by 18 AWG pushing a few hundred feet.
 
Dont ask how I know

Dont ask how I know

The mag lock is 24 VDC, there are at least 2 power supplies in the store. One in the front in the telephone/computer room. This one would be probably be powered off the other one in the main electrical room.
This is a stamped, engineered system. Its a delayed ergess system and should damn well work right, too. If, it wasn't installed right or not tested I would share your setiment.

The maglock is the securitron M62G, it draws 150 mA at 24 VDC. The PS rating would be 4 Amps at 24 DC (with 24h of battery back up, and FA disconnect) there would be no more than about 10 of those on that supply. They are all home run.



Its only a problem if the contractor cannot handle the fire and burg panel. If, they can't, they wont be in business long.

You can disable just one point and not take down the whole system. (after asking the FD nicely of course.) sure the direct connect, whichever it may be, would be shut off. Then the contractor would be there and if the system goes off and you disconnected the correct point, you stop what you are doing and call 911. The contractor would be responsible for anything that happens while its off line.

What I am getting at is if you are well trained and experienced professional this shouldn't be an issue. I realize in MA there are more licensed LV hacks than you can shake a stick at but, I know I can do it safely.

Isn't that reasonable?

Additionally, if you are really careful, you can open that Firelite pull with a key, pull the 4 screws and get to the contact without tripping the fire system, trouble or alarm. I have to admit to doing this once, because it was after 5 pm and the Fire Dept wouldn't want to be bothered. Not that I am saying that is the optimal system, but its doable.
 
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nhfire77 said:
The mag lock is 24 VDC, there are at least 2 power supplies in the store. One in the front in the telephone/computer room. This one would be probably be powered off the other one in the main electrical room.
This is a stamped, engineered system. Its a delayed ergess system and should damn well work right, too. If, it wasn't installed right or not tested I would share your setiment.

The maglock is the securitron M62G, it draws 150 mA at 24 VDC. The PS rating would be 4 Amps at 24 DC (with 24h of battery back up, and FA disconnect) there would be no more than about 10 of those on that supply. They are all home run.
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You work for Gemini?



You can disable just one point and not take down the whole system. (after asking the FD nicely of course.) sure the direct connect, whichever it may be, would be shut off.
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Not many towns in MA will let me do that, Framingham would require a permit.:rolleyes:

What I am getting at is if you are well trained and experienced professional this shouldn't be an issue. I realize in MA there are more licensed LV hacks than you can shake a stick at but, I know I can do it safely.
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What I am getting at it is a poor design in my mind to mix fire alarm systems with burg security. The worst fire alarm system installs I run across are done by security contractors.

The Radionics Fire panels are a joke in my opinion.

Additionally, if you are really careful, you can open that Firelite pull with a key, pull the 4 screws and get to the contact without tripping the fire system, trouble or alarm.
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Sorry, thats not my style, I don't accidentally evacuate a big box store and have to explain myself to the local FD.:D
 
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So basically they saved 20' of sealtight and a few bell boxes by combining them that way. Hardly seems worth it for the aggravation if there's a problem.
:roll:
 
More then that, they saved an entire raceway run all along the fence.

It is some savings for sure at least at the time of construction.
 
peter d said:
So basically they saved 20' of sealtight and a few bell boxes by combining them that way. Hardly seems worth it for the aggravation if there's a problem.
:roll:
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i get it. The new stores they build out is all in dedicated EMT (inside and out!!!) for the fire alarm, as it should be.
 
iwire said:
More then that, they saved an entire raceway run all along the fence.

It is some savings for sure at least at the time of construction.
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Oh, I missed that part. Oops. Yeah, I can see the savings there, but at least they could have split it up when it comes to the terminations at the gate.
 
iwire said:
You work for Gemini?


Not many towns in MA will let me do that, Framingham would require a permit.:rolleyes:


What I am getting at it is a poor design in my mind to mix fire alarm systems with burg security. The worst fire alarm system installs I run across are done by security contractors.

The Radionics Fire panels are a joke in my opinion.





Sorry, thats not my style, I don't accidentally evacuate a big box store and have to explain myself to the local FD.:D
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No not Gemini, they are everywhere though. I am a part of a super secret society of fire alarm/LV super geeks. Our unofficial slogan is, '''We are the last place you call for what the others cannot do." (insert evil laugh) I work for a few small outfits filling in where the technical aspect of LV is lacking or too costly for a full time guy. LV contracting isnt even my full time job, but it feels that way!!!

OK yes technically you touched the fire alarm by opening the pull, but if you are not changing/altering anything, that's crap IMO. But, I know what you mean. Its fun telling the customer I'll be back tomorrow with the permit, and yes that's extra :mad:


BTW, I haven't made it to Frammingham yet and will remember that.

Well, if Bosch/Radionics are dedicated for fire and not sharing security they are fine. I would rather a Silent Knight any day. Radionics is the most flexible burg panel you can get, but it is too complex for fire. Also you have to buy over $20,000 of their equipment a year to purchase direct from them and the panels are not available anywhere else. Its a racket, but I have to say, they are awesome burg panels.

In fact, The Robert Bosch Company reinvests all their profits after taxes to in house R&D and a whole bunch of charities through a blind trust, so you won't here about who gets their money, but they give away billions. Or so I was told by their reps. I like that in a company.

I agree that they should be separate systems in 95% of the cases. If there are less than 10 fire devices combos are OK.

I personally revel in seeing the management panic, even if I have to explain myself.:grin:
 
nhfire77 said:
...
The maglock is the securitron M62G, it draws 150 mA at 24 VDC. The PS rating would be 4 Amps at 24 DC (with 24h of battery back up, ...
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But is it a listed Class 2 power supply? If not, you can't mix the systems in the same raceway.
 
Yes it is a class 2 power limited, its an Altronix AL400UL or something similar. You won't see an open frame or non-powerlimited power supply used for access control.
 
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