Fire damage and re-wiring a house

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fletcher

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Hello,

I am a private home inspector and have a question for the experts on this site.

I have two questions.

I inspected a house that had moderate fire damage for a prospective buyer. Some of the personal items in the home were melted so it made me wonder if the insulation on the wire inside the walls was melted. The buyer seems to think they can just wash and paint in the rooms where there is mainly smoke damage.

Is there a rule/code on this? Does the whole house have to be rewired because of possible melted wires? Also, some of the wire was stolen by crack-heads so they could sell the wire for scrap metal. I told the buyer they should plan on re-wiring the entire house. Which leads me to question 2.

This is a 1,100 square foot bungalow, 2 beds down, one up, bath on main floor only, basement. Anyone care to throw out a *ballpark* price on wiring it so i can tell my customer???


If you want to see photos of this house see this link, the interior pictures start at #21

http://www.miproperty.com/rutland9359/

Thanks for your help.
 
Based on this image alone: http://www.miproperty.com/rutland9359/rutland041.JPG

I would say a complete re-wire is neccessary.
A new HO may not even be able to get insurance coverage with those fuses in there.
Why is the panel rusted? Water from when?

Your buyer is sadly mistaken to assume "spackel and paint will make a job what it ain't". The sheetrock was soaked with water, as was the insualtion - prime targets for a mold issue to appear.

The other damages also leads me to believe that a complete gut and re-build is in short order.

As far as price goes, well...I'm in NJ and our prices will vary from Detroit's...I would be in the neighborhood of $7,000 to $10,000 based on code minimum standards assuming their is a fossil fuel available for heat, hot water, cooking, etc.
 
It is hard to tell from some of the pics, so I would say that it would be easy as an inspector to require Meggering of the conductors in areas that were not damaged too bad by the fire. The fire damaged areas would require rewiring.
 
I'm with Celtic on this one. What, exactly, is it you're trying to save ? If paint and spackle were all I could afford to spruce up this house and make it appear to be livable I still wouldn't have peace of mind moving in and knowing I didn't gut it down to bare studs to inspect all hidden areas. If you didn't have fire damage in some areas you probably had water damage from the fire hoses in those areas. BTW, you also have asbestos shingles on the outside of the house. Have fun trying to get rid of these. By the time everyone is done spinning their wheels trying to figure out how to make this home repair feasable you're going to find out that tearing it down and rebuilding it is not that far out of reach.
 
I am more worried about what is in the styrofoam container and the open jar of Flintstone's vitamins on this. Seriously though I am with the other guys. I can't see this being just a clean up. I think all the rock has to be removed and a complete rewire, if the property is worth the cost. It will save money in the end.
 
Man...looking at all of that screwed pipe on the plumbing depresses me.
Plumbing used to be a hard job.

Since the interior walls will have to be gutted anyway, it will give the opportunity to inspect the wiring for damage, but the fuse panel would have to go regardless.
Celtic gives a good price on the estimate.
From the looks of things, the Fire department must have done a good job to put that fire out before the house burned down.
As a electrician, I would give a cost plus price (not to exceed), and try to re-use everything that was still OK, unless the AHJ (in your area) requires you to bring it to current code. This would require replacing most if not all of the exisitng wiring.
Someone else would have to remove the sheetrock and insulation (and asbestos, etc.) before I began work.
Hope this helps
steve
 
Maybe another fire will solve this home's problems. Seriously though, this doesn't even look like it's worth saving. I realize the economy of Detroit and New England are far different, but around here that home would get bulldozed as Vic suggested.
 
I have worked on houses that looked as bad as this and were saved but it did take some money and a good GC that knew fire restoration. I wouldn't attempt a project like this working with just the homeowner.

It's up to the GC to find sub-contractors to work on a project like this. As
others have mentioned just the clean up may get expensive.

The reason that some of these homes are saved and not dozed. There are government loans to restore low rent housing ( at least there were ). If you tear it down then you are stuck going to the bank. It's hard to get loans to rebuild in some areas. I'm not saying this is the case here but when you see a house that is restored when it should have been demolished there is a reason.
 
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Any one thirsty for some milk and ice cream?

rutland030.JPG
 
Rules, requirements, laws, whatever you like to call them are put in place for a reason. Those requirements give guidelines in the minimums to let people know what they have to do.

The pictures in this post do not show a lot of damage in certain areas that I can see (plastic bags with goods in them not even damaged). With that said, one thing some of you here who are not inspectors may not realize is the pressure that is put on inspectors to enforce the "minimum" requirements as written.
This building owner may go to the village supervisor or the mayor and request (yell and scream) fair treatment... our office gets a call and we are asked to provide the requirements we are enforcing... we better be enforcing those requirements, and not what we feel should be done.

So, it is easy for those here to say rip it down, but lets see what happens to your demands as the town supervisor and the clients lawyer(s), and the insurance company are breathing down your neck. ;)
 
Matt, I've looked over the photos, and I've glanced over your website and see that rehabs are your business. Knowing this, I know you know your abilities, and can make the determination on your own whether this house is salvageable.

(I have to say, looking at the pictures, I'd be recommending a bulldozer. But that is outside the electrical aspect entirely.)

Electrically, I would say that given the extent of the existing damage, you should consider just flat out knocking out some drywall and inspecting the wiring. Let's face it, seeing is believing, and I seriously doubt a few more holes are going to matter at this point. It would make your decision on recommendation a lot easier.

I see the panel Celtic pointed out, and I saw many non-grounding receptacles. That dates the wiring system back quite a ways.

Old cloth-sheathed NM or knob and tube is not comforting without even adding in the added stress on it from being exposed to a fire.

I'd agree with the folks above, a complete rewire is in order, especially if some wire has been removed already.
 
Pierre C Belarge said:
So, it is easy for those here to say rip it down, but lets see what happens to your demands as the town supervisor and the clients lawyer(s), and the insurance company are breathing down your neck. ;)
Click to expand...

Structurally, the house may be sound....needing occasional stud/joist replacement like near that stairwell.

I am not qualified to say "tear it down", but I am (IMHO) qualified to say the sheetrock, insulation, etc needs replacement and this isn't a "spackle and paint" job.

When the insurance people get involved, you have to remember that while it is your insurance and you have paid your premiums, ultimately, the adjusters are there to protect the company's best interest (the money paid by you).
If you don't agree, see how the claims were handeled down in NOLA. Sure it's a grander scale, but the point is the same.

A lawyer may be needed to protect the HO's best interest - recieving all they are due under the terms of their HO policy.

....and with any luck, it won't be revealed that there was any work performed by unqualified people w/o proper permits and inspections.
 
How a job like this is handled here. Does this sound familiar.

Get a call from a GC wanting a bid on a fire job. He ask my opinion. Needs to be gutted and rewired is my reply. Not enough money in the budget say's the GC, I want to save the wiring in the back bedrooms can't afford to do it right.

At this point I can do it his way or walk. So far I have always walked. He is free to try and find a contractor that will take a chance ( in may cases he does).

Unless it's obvious the inspector will take your word that the existing wiring is safe. I have done a couple of jobs ( small fires ) where they didn't even enter the house.

The liability rest with the electrical contractor. My view, why take chances.
The wiring in this house probably wasn't very good before the fire.

I have worked on projects that looked about like this one and they look great now. The basic structure was sound. I don't think a little fire makes much differance on a major rehab ( a lot more clean up ). Once the building is gutted and the old timber sealed to get rid of the smoke smell and the damaged areas repaired it starts not to look so bad.

The real problem is when people don't understand the scope of work on a job like this. A bulldozer may not be needed but it's a long way from just a little paint and polish.
 
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