Fire Damage

[blue spark]

I would refuse the work if ALL wiring, devices, and equipment was not removed and scrapped. The heat in that fire has damaged the insulation properties of the NM. That I am sure of. I've seen it first hand. It might look OK but it's not.

 

[aline]

Yes $40/man/hr. I will pay 2 guys $13/hr ea. They will do all the work. I mark material up 20%.

It's no wonder there's a shortage of electricians. With pay so low who in their right mind would want to become an electrician these days.
http://www.maintenanceworld.com/Articles/newswires/Massive-shortage-electricians-predicted.html

It's kind of funny how there's a shortage of gas and the price of gas goes through the roof. Supply and demand.

There's a shortage of electricians and we're still cutting each others throats with prices from the eighties.
I gave an estimate to wire a basement the other day and my price was $2,500. She said the other contractors price was $950. I asked who the other contractor was. This guy has been in business for 20 years and has ads in the yellow pages. I don't think he's raised his prices in 20 years either.

I remember not too long ago people were complaining about gas costing $2.00 per gallon. Now it's over $3.00 per gallon. If it dropped to $2.00 per gallon again people would be very happy with a price that they used to consider way high. People complain about the high price of things but still pay it and eventually get used to it until the price goes up again.

 

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

Sheep. Or better yet - lemmings. Same goes for those who would charge $40 an hour on a time and material basis, cause $15 an hour is what the company owner will end up making after he pays for all his expenses to get this job done. My opinion is I don't care what part of the country you live in, you should ought to dump the by the hour thinking and learn how to flat rate bid. If you lived in Burma, I would pat you on the back and tell you how good you are doing. But you don't, you live in the United States and price yourselves like you live in Burma. I bet your gasoline costs close to $3 a gallon or even more. And do they lower the costs of new 8 cyl 1 ton vans in your area because buyers aren't willing to pay as much around there for a new van as they are in other parts of the country? This is all sort of new to me, I had no idea that liability insurance rates were dependant on what part of the country you live in, I thought they were a result of the type of work you do, and your past record. Same for income tax, I never knew there were different rates for different states. Or workmans comp. Or the cost of filing cabinets. Or the company's computers. Possibly the cost of a yellow page is less there than in the city, and so also your company building, I admit, but not enough to offset your low rates. Pardon me if this post comes across a bit insulting, I am not trying to insult anybody, just trying to get the sleeping to wake up.

Slavery isn't dead, it just pays better. The people lining up 100 deep at 7-11 for $15 an hour are illegal immigrants. They're living 20-30 to a house each paying 100-200 bucks a week for a cot. That's 8 grand a month (minimum) to an unscrupulipus landlord whose expense is about 2000.00 a month for mortgage and overhead.

 

[growler]

I gave an estimate to wire a basement the other day and my price was $2,500. She said the other contractors price was $950. I asked who the other contractor was. This guy has been in business for 20 years and has ads in the yellow pages. I don't think he's raised his prices in 20 years either.

"She said the other contractor's price was $950". I wouldn't believe that for a minute. I always ask to see the bid. You could be surprised when you see what work he is actually giving a price on. Most homeowners don't know how to read a bid or think about what is actually covered, they only see the dollar amount. This guy may end up charging her 3 or 4 thousand before the job is over.

I went to look at a small restuarant remodel the other day. They did not have a clearly defined scope of work. No plans or even equipment locations, all verbal, owner/contractor. The bids on that job will be all over the place ( high & low ) so I didn't waste any time there. The contractor that gets that job will probably wish he hadn't. I would be surprised if he gets paid.

 

[LarryFine]

I remember not too long ago people were complaining about gas costing $2.00 per gallon. Now it's over $3.00 per gallon. If it dropped to $2.00 per gallon again people would be very happy with a price that they used to consider way high. People complain about the high price of things but still pay it and eventually get used to it until the price goes up again.

I recall a day years ago when my dad said that he couldn't belive that gasoline broke .30/gal.

 

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

I recall a day years ago when my dad said that he couldn't belive that gasoline broke .30/gal.

That's when MY dad complained the subway went up to a nickel, and it cost fifty cents for nosebleed seats to watch the Mets lose.

 

[bradleyelectric]

Same goes for those who would charge $40 an hour on a time and material basis, cause $15 an hour is what the company owner will end up making after he pays for all his expenses to get this job done. And do they lower the costs of new 8 cyl 1 ton vans in your area because buyers aren't willing to pay as much around there for a new van as they are in other parts of the country? This is all sort of new to me, I had no idea that liability insurance rates were dependant on what part of the country you live in, I thought they were a result of the type of work you do, and your past record. Same for income tax, I never knew there were different rates for different states. Or workmans comp. Or the cost of filing cabinets. Or the company's computers. Possibly the cost of a yellow page is less there than in the city, and so also your company building, I admit, but not enough to offset your low rates. Pardon me if this post comes across a bit insulting, I am not trying to insult anybody, just trying to get the sleeping to wake up.

A friend of mine once got a P.O. box in a rural area to get a rural area rebate on a truck he bought. The state of MD has different income tax rates depending on the county you live in. What do you think is the income tax rate for the state of Nevada? Let me give you a clue. The state used to be run by people that didn't have an interest in disclosing their income. Land and buildings vary greatly in different parts of the US. Don't get me wrong, I am a very strong advocate of making as much money as any doctor with a good practice. Just understand that bread does not cost the same all over.

 

[elvis_931]

I remember not too long ago people were complaining about gas costing $2.00 per gallon. Now it's over $3.00 per gallon. If it dropped to $2.00 per gallon again people would be very happy with a price that they used to consider way high. People complain about the high price of things but still pay it and eventually get used to it until the price goes up again.

Everything in America is expensive. We are forced to have to make high wages to be able to pay for everyday necessaties, not counting the nicer things we want. The sad fact is that we have forced this situation on ourselves over years and years of greed. The cost of a new vehicle is outrageous because the people pushing a button to start a machine that builds the vehicle are being paid $25-35/hr and still think they deserve more than that. We are diluting the value of our dollar every day, and you wonder why rates have to be so much higher than they were "in the 80's". It is all self inflicted. No way to correct it now, just have to ride the wave.

 

[macmikeman]

A friend of mine once got a P.O. box in a rural area to get a rural area rebate on a truck he bought. The state of MD has different income tax rates depending on the county you live in. What do you think is the income tax rate for the state of Nevada? Let me give you a clue. The state used to be run by people that didn't have an interest in disclosing their income. Land and buildings vary greatly in different parts of the US. Don't get me wrong, I am a very strong advocate of making as much money as any doctor with a good practice. Just understand that bread does not cost the same all over.

I was basically refering to federal income taxes, sorry should have made it clear. Yes there will be some differences in cost for various areas, but not a wide enough spread to continue to work for dirt. If your customers are dirt poor, then you won't do much in that area. But down in parts of the south the electricians are working for peanuts, while the customers live in gated golf communities, have yachts, and drive cars that sparky only sees in James Bond movies. My own personal goal is removal of that xtra cash from them and redistribution to the deserving.... namely me. And I find that that very goal is attainable by simply redirecting my thinking from watching how much everybody else is charging to how much should I charge to meet my breakeven, make a profit, and even better pick plums out of the tree whenever they appear. Plums do not come to those who bill out hourly at $40.00 unless they employ hundreds at $15.00 with no bennies. This is not a reality I make up it is simple business truth.

 

[dbuckley]

Everything in America is expensive.

You are, of course, joking.

 

[wbalsam1]

My uncle used to work for low electrician wages and when he died, he was so poor he couldn't afford a headstone, so we buried him sittin' up.:grin: :grin:

 

[petersonra]

You can't just do what the homeowner asks for. They know nothing about electrical work. You must do what is right for this particular job. If that means replacing all of the wire, replace all of the wire. If it means testing the integrity of the existing wire, then test it. We are the professionals in this trade and we can't have HO's or GC telling us what is the best and safest repair method. A contract clause as suggested, would not absolve you of any liability if the wiring were to fail again and cause damage.

He can certainly not replace stuff that does not need replacing. I agree he can't allow the HO or the HO's insurance company to dictate what has to be replaced.

I personally do not believe there is an effective test for fire damaged wires or components. You can find stuff that has already failed with a meg test, but stuff that has been damaged bu not to the point of failure may not show up. If there is only smoke damage in a room, and the walls show no evidence of high heat, I'd be inclined to accept an insulation test of some sort as a means of determining that the electrical stuff is OK.

I would be surprised that the structural elements can be saved if the wiring is all that badly damaged.

 

[LarryFine]

My uncle used to work for low electrician wages and when he died, he was so poor he couldn't afford a headstone, so we buried him sittin' up.:grin: :grin:

Shocking!!

 

[satcom]

He can certainly not replace stuff that does not need replacing. I agree he can't allow the HO or the HO's insurance company to dictate what has to be replaced.

I would be surprised that the structural elements can be saved if the wiring is all that badly damaged.

Well get ready to be suprised, most of our fire work over the years, have shown damaged cables, well past the scorch zone, where no apparent structual damage was obvious, the heat seems to be what does the damage, some homes turn into ovens, and the heat seems to follow the cables, one home had damaged cable on the floor below, where everything in the room was in perfect condition, however the cable in the walls, was melted.

IMO Fire jobs require a good look at extension damage, before you can recommend any wiring.

 

[Polarcat]

I had a project about a year ago,
5000sqft tenant fitup in a strip mall. we were about 75% done, when I received a call from the GC on Easter Sunday that there was a FIRE, I was on the way to church with the family, needless to say I dropped them off (concerned that someone would point a finger at me).

when I arrived the fire Marshall, GC, and owner were there, damage was to one fire wall, some partition walls, a hole in the roof (from the FD), and a lot of water. The story I got was someone called it in that the store was full of smoke (no fire), fire dept gets there and breakers the front glass in, then the fire flashed.

anyway, after review of the damage I knew it had nothing to do with me or my company, it was on a wall that the plumber the day before was soldering pipes near some sound board, funny thing it stamped all over it that it is flammable and will smolder, sure enough here comes the plumber and the first words out of his mouth was "its electrical, look at all the wire in that wall". That?s when I showed them all the branch wire bundled up in front of the panel and nothing landed in it!!! The Fire Marshal looked at the plumber and said well there goes that theory!

The next day, we met the insurance company, they wanted me to just fix the area where there was fire damage and nothing else. I noted that I would not have a problem doing that, however I would need a letter from them or an engineer releasing me from any liability for all electrical thru out the building. Naturally they would not do it, and asked me why? Well, with all the water sprayed in that store and the heat that must have built up after 20hrs of smoldering, there was no way for me to no what is good and what is not, or what would fail in the future.

the outcome was a change order to remove all the installed wiring for the entire front section of the store, new panel (soaked) new breakers, repair a service feeder that was cut by the FD demo saw, rewire everything, and replace all wiring in the party wall serving the next store over.

 

[elvis_931]

I was on the way to church with the family, needless to say I dropped them off (concerned that someone would point a finger at me).

[/QUOTE]That?s when I showed them all the branch wire bundled up in front of the panel and nothing landed in it!!! The Fire Marshal looked at the plumber and said well there goes that theory! [/QUOTE]

If nothing was landed in the panel, why would you suspect it would be your fault? . Not cool ditching your family at church.

 

[mtnelectrical]

Well, Polarcat how you got paid for that extra work? T & M?

 

[LarryFine]

If nothing was landed in the panel, why would you suspect it would be your fault? . Not cool ditching your family at church.

I might very well have done the same thing. I see it as a reasonsible reaction, especially without having the time to think about it after the fact like you had, and I'll take messing with wiring over sitting through a sermon any day.

 

[Polarcat]

Well couple of things led me to run over
1. I don't work in the field much these days, I have a lot of employees working on multiple projects. and I didn't know if that day they landed and energized some stuff before the weekend.

2. even if I did know it,
a. this is my livelihood everything I own (or the bank owns!) revolves around my income from the business.
b. and like said above you kind of don't think you just react when you get that kind of call.

Besides it is always a good thing to represent yourself (the guy not there will get blamed more then half the time). and I know the GC and owner really appreciated me being there (future work!).

mtnelectrical- yes and no, I got paid T&M on some parts new contract on others. Believe me it worked out for me in the end!!! probably one of the most profitable (percentage wise) projects we have done in the last 10years