Fire Pits

[jmellc]

We got a call today to check out a fire pit we recently installed power for. One of our guys installed a GFCI as requested, partially embedded into the inner wall of the pit. Customer couldn't get it to light and wanted to use it for Thanksgiving gathering tomorrow.

So we get there, the gas jets had been installed, a metal plate, grating and lava rock. We had to shovel rock out and there was barely room for my partner to stick his hand down to the GFCI, with me prying the plate as much as possible with a shovel. Was nearly impossible to unplug the equipment and plug in a tester, but he somehow managed. Then he saw that a smart phone module was part of it. Some troubleshooting and it turned out the module had to be reprogrammed.

My 2 gripes with this:

IMHO, this is high tech overdone to the 10th power. What's so wrong with a pushbutton ignitor? This stuff is brand new and already having to be reworked. In fact, why not turn on the gas and throw a match in it? Just my 2 cents.

2nd, this was a foolish way to set up a receptacle. Our man hadn't done one before and didn't think to ask questions; he put it where they requested. Someone in charge should have known this was making the receptacle impossible to access. When it needs to be replaced, the guts will have to be removed by someone to make it possible. This is nothing but stupid.

If I get called to a similar install, I will insist on a box installed into the wall or outside of it, with a conduit into pit for the cord. This was among the stupidest ways I've seen to do something.

 

[ggunn]

We got a call today to check out a fire pit we recently installed power for.

[...]

IMHO, this is high tech overdone to the 10th power. What's so wrong with a pushbutton ignitor?

What's wrong with a kitchen match?

 

[ptonsparky]

Well I’m for one of those little rocket igniters programmed to ignite via a small PLC. Maybe controlled via your cell phone. Wait, that’s what you have.

 

[ggunn]

IMHO, this is high tech overdone to the 10th power.

I feel the same way about automatic water spigots in bathrooms.

 

[JFletcher]

For a real answer to your question, throwing a lit match into a gas leak, an intentional one or not, is not a reliable source of ignition.

3 years ago, I burned off my eyebrows and gave myself a flash burn while trying to ignite a portable propane heater. I seriously underestimated the amount of gas coming out, and the proximity to the heater also knocked me on my backside.

Piezo-electric igniters might be good if they weren't made by the lowest bidder in a country half a world away.

To the original posters application, this is one place where a GFCI breaker with regular receptacles would be prudent.

 

[drcampbell]

... IMHO, this is high tech overdone to the 10th power. What's so wrong with a pushbutton ignitor? ...

A pushbutton igniter won't shut off the gas if it fails to ignite.
(I'm not sayin' that this implementation isn't overdone, but preventing whole-house gas explosions is a good thing)

 

[jmellc]

What's wrong with a kitchen match?

Go back and read what I wrote. I also mentioned throwing a match in it.

 

[jmellc]

A pushbutton igniter won't shut off the gas if it fails to ignite.
(I'm not sayin' that this implementation isn't overdone, but preventing whole-house gas explosions is a good thing)

Will the smart phone app always shut it off? I watched while the app lit the 1st jet, then the rest lit when gas accumulated, another whole issue with me. I didn't see the app shut it off. We had to clear rocks off jets with sticks.

 

[jmellc]

For a real answer to your question, throwing a lit match into a gas leak, an intentional one or not, is not a reliable source of ignition.

3 years ago, I burned off my eyebrows and gave myself a flash burn while trying to ignite a portable propane heater. I seriously underestimated the amount of gas coming out, and the proximity to the heater also knocked me on my backside.

Piezo-electric igniters might be good if they weren't made by the lowest bidder in a country half a world away.

To the original posters application, this is one place where a GFCI breaker with regular receptacles would be prudent.

So, none of these smart phone modules are made overseas?

I do prefer GFCI breakers, as they are more reliable, less nuisance tripping and much longer lasting. But cost wins in most cases. The real issue is that any receptacle should be accessible. A structure should not have to be damaged or fixed equipment removed to allow testing or replacing a device. A PVC box can easily be worked into the structure with a removable cover, hiding outlet but still making it easily accessible. Cord can be brought in through a conduit.

 

[Adamjamma]

Will the smart phone app always shut it off? I watched while the app lit the 1st jet, then the rest lit when gas accumulated, another whole issue with me. I didn't see the app shut it off. We had to clear rocks off jets with sticks.

all gas stoves use a similar circuit pretty much now... a system lights the one jet... the heat from that jet keeps the circuit inside from shutting down the fuel, and then the rest of the gas lights up... if the first jet fails to light within a certain count, the circuit shuts off the fuel. If you have had bad fuel gum up the stove, cleaning just the jet area where the sparker is will let it start working usually.

 

[WarrMann]

"So we get there, the gas jets had been installed, a metal plate, grating and lava rock. We had to shovel rock out and there was barely room for my partner to stick his hand down to the GFCI"

Sorry for being that guy, but this is a code violation. 210.8 requires the gfci to be readily accessible.

Your guy should always remember that part the GFCI code, and he won't run into that problem again. Its also leverage when the customer says "i want that installed there".

Tell the customer to empty that pit out so you can replace with a regular outlet, and gfci protect upstream

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[readydave8]

"So we get there, the gas jets had been installed, a metal plate, grating and lava rock. We had to shovel rock out and there was barely room for my partner to stick his hand down to the GFCI"

Sorry for being that guy, but this is a code violation. 210.8 requires the gfci to be readily accessible.

Your guy should always remember that part the GFCI code, and he won't run into that problem again. Its also leverage when the customer says "i want that installed there".



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I don't think it was a code violation when installed, sounds like electrician did not know what was going to be piled around receptacle

Should he have asked the right questions and been able to avoid future barriers? That would have been nice, but still not electricians fault

The gods themselves contend in vain against stupidity

 

[romex jockey]

I don't believe i've been privy to these fire pits being described here & have no idea.....

~RJ~

 

[hbiss]

I don't believe i've been privy to these fire pits being described here & have no idea.....

Well maybe not exactly, but from a operational standpoint picture a gas bar-B-Que with a receptacle located below the gas jets in the firebox with a metal plate between them.

Don't think I like the receptacle and control underneath the lava rock and flame even if it was separated by a metal plate. Was this fire pit outside?

-Hal

 

[jmellc]

I don't think it was a code violation when installed, sounds like electrician did not know what was going to be piled around receptacle

Should he have asked the right questions and been able to avoid future barriers? That would have been nice, but still not electricians fault

The gods themselves contend in vain against stupidity

That's right. Our first guy out there had no idea they were going to block it so much and didn't think to ask. I would have thought of it because I'm often the guy who has to go work on something after all the folly. None of us have seen that many firepits but we have seen enough now to ask/encourage/insist.

The ideal set up is an 8x8x4 PVC box, embedded in the wall, facing outside, with 3/4 underground conduit feeding it and a 1 1/4 conduit feeding to interior, for cord & plug to come in. 1 1/4 is large enough for most plugs. Situate box to just over flush, cover protruding less than 1 inch from wall. Inconspicuous but readily accessible.

 

[kwired]

For a real answer to your question, throwing a lit match into a gas leak, an intentional one or not, is not a reliable source of ignition.

3 years ago, I burned off my eyebrows and gave myself a flash burn while trying to ignite a portable propane heater. I seriously underestimated the amount of gas coming out, and the proximity to the heater also knocked me on my backside.

Can say same for any ignition source if you are close by when lighting.

A pushbutton igniter won't shut off the gas if it fails to ignite.
(I'm not sayin' that this implementation isn't overdone, but preventing whole-house gas explosions is a good thing)

This is an outdoor appliance from what I understand, still has some dangers though, but not so likely to fill a home with gas and have a whole house explosion.

I don't believe i've been privy to these fire pits being described here & have no idea.....

~RJ~

Me neither. My fire pit, we throw real wood logs onto it and have to use kindling or a starting fluid to start it. I usually use diesel, because I usually have some on hand and is much safer than gasoline.

Well maybe not exactly, but from a operational standpoint picture a gas bar-B-Que with a receptacle located below the gas jets in the firebox with a metal plate between them.

Don't think I like the receptacle and control underneath the lava rock and flame even if it was separated by a metal plate. Was this fire pit outside?

-Hal

I'm picturing something with a controller more similar to an inside fireplace than a control like an outdoor BBQ typically has.

GFCI is supposed to be readily accessible. As mentioned maybe original installer wasn't aware of what may all go in after he installed the GFCI?

 

[growler]

I don't believe i've been privy to these fire pits being described here & have no idea.....

~RJ~

I have not built one of these either.

I believe that the contractor building these or other outdoor cooking areas shout have some sort of plans showing where they want and it's possible to install these receptacles. It'sup to the GC to know what the end product is going to look like and how it will function.

I have only done a few outdoor kitchens and I was not pleased with the lack of knowledge of the GCs in charge of the job.

 

[jmellc]

Well maybe not exactly, but from a operational standpoint picture a gas bar-B-Que with a receptacle located below the gas jets in the firebox with a metal plate between them.

Don't think I like the receptacle and control underneath the lava rock and flame even if it was separated by a metal plate. Was this fire pit outside?

-Hal

Yes, outdoors. Ideal install is an 8x8x4 pvc box embedded in the wall, facing outward, fed with underground conduit and a 1 1/4 conduit through to the pit. 1 1/4 is large enough for most any cord/plug to pass through. Set in wall with open side about 3/4 inch out from wall surface. Inconspicuous but readily accessible.

 

[ggunn]

Me neither. My fire pit, we throw real wood logs onto it and have to use kindling or a starting fluid to start it. I usually use diesel, because I usually have some on hand and is much safer than gasoline.

I use those wax and sawdust fire starter bricks with a bit of fat pine.

 

[romex jockey]

I have not built one of these either.

I believe that the contractor building these or other outdoor cooking areas shout have some sort of plans showing where they want and it's possible to install these receptacles. It'sup to the GC to know what the end product is going to look like and how it will function.

I have only done a few outdoor kitchens and I was not pleased with the lack of knowledge of the GCs in charge of the job.

I've googled in an effort to understand>>>>
https://www.woodlanddirect.com/Outdoor/Outdoor-Fire-Pits
the components all look like gas grill parts>
https://www.woodlanddirect.com/Outd...MItaCoq-3t3gIVwWSGCh0a7QFCEAAYASAAEgLRJvD_BwE

So my take (so far) is, these are mostly decorative 'firepits' , which may have wood fuel ignited via gas.....?

~RJ~