fire rated door for a demising wall

[safetyJoe]

We have a 100,000 sq ft warehouse that has two separate services. We installed a man door and a garage door into that demising wall. The electrical inspector is now telling me that to make that door code I have to install a 3/4 hour fire door. He said that this was referencing code 230.2 and 230.72. When I read those codes, I did not see anything about a fire rated demising wall. I have only taken the 30 OSHA course so I by all means do not know if I am not reading the whole code or if I am being played a bit. The building inspector approved the work 2 years ago, but sent us a letter that the electrical inspector told him that it is not correct due the NEC 2011 230.2 and 230.72. Any help would be appreciated.

 

[mgookin]

If the wall is required to be rated, any opening in that wall must be rated. Keep in mind the required rating of the door is almost always less than the required rating of the wall.

What is the rating of the wall?
What's on each side of the wall? (why is it rated in the first place?)

 

[Sierrasparky]

We have a 100,000 sq ft warehouse that has two separate services. We installed a man door and a garage door into that demising wall. The electrical inspector is now telling me that to make that door code I have to install a 3/4 hour fire door. He said that this was referencing code 230.2 and 230.72. When I read those codes, I did not see anything about a fire rated demising wall. I have only taken the 30 OSHA course so I by all means do not know if I am not reading the whole code or if I am being played a bit. The building inspector approved the work 2 years ago, but sent us a letter that the electrical inspector told him that it is not correct due the NEC 2011 230.2 and 230.72. Any help would be appreciated.

Why is the electrical inspector telling you anything about Framing, doors or windows. This guy is overstepping his authority. This is a problem for the building inspector or his boss.

 

[safetyJoe]

Why is the electrical inspector telling you anything about Framing, doors or windows. This guy is overstepping his authority. This is a problem for the building inspector or his boss.

The electrical inspector told the building inspector that it was part of 2011 NEC article 230.2 and 230.72. That was the same response I had, but being a new safety manager and just finishing up my OSHA 30 hour class, I thought that maybe those codes did talk about a fire rating.

 

[Sierrasparky]

The electrical inspector told the building inspector that it was part of 2011 NEC article 230.2 and 230.72. That was the same response I had, but being a new safety manager and just finishing up my OSHA 30 hour class, I thought that maybe those codes did talk about a fire rating.

Ok but what does Article 230 have to do with fire rated walls and openings. 230 is about services the number of and how many disconects allowed.

Are mixing up complaints.

 

[iwire]

Ok but what does Article 230 have to do with fire rated walls and openings. 230 is about services the number of and how many disconects allowed.

Are mixing up complaints.

My guess is that the inspector felt there were two distinct buildings up until the doors where cut in. Now there is just one building with too many services.

I think he may be right. A huge pain in the butt yet still correct.

 

[Sierrasparky]

My guess is that the inspector felt there were two distinct buildings up until the doors where cut in. Now there is just one building with too many services.

I think he may be right. A huge pain in the butt yet still correct.

Placing a fire rated door I do not believe changes a building from two to one.

Besides Service is usually a utility call and not the inspector. There are instances where more than one service is permitted.
Seems to me this guy is pulling his weight around.

More info is necessary.

 

[GoldDigger]

Placing a fire rated door I do not believe changes a building from two to one.

But placing a non-fire rated door would either be a building code violation OR an indication that the fire rated wall is no longer required because the structure is now one occupancy instead of two. (In technical terms, the wall is no longer a demising wall.)
The OP cannot have it both ways (i.e. non-fire rated door and two services) unless he meets one of the other exceptions allowing more than one service per building.

 

[Sierrasparky]

But placing a non-fire rated door would either be a building code violation OR an indication that the fire rated wall is no longer required because the structure is now one occupancy instead of two. (In technical terms, the wall is no longer a demising wall.)
The OP cannot have it both ways (i.e. non-fire rated door and two services) unless he meets one of the other exceptions allowing more than one service per building.

My guess is that we are missing the point.
1) the OP claims that the Building inspector signed off the doors 2 years ago. Maybe by mistake.
2) the inspector is citing Article 230 about services

It is not the repsonsibility of the Electrical inspector to call out Fire doors.
If the doors were on the plans then that is going to be a AHJ building official dillemma and not the Electricians or the Electrical inspector. ( unless the EI is a all in one. )

 

[iwire]

But placing a non-fire rated door would either be a building code violation OR an indication that the fire rated wall is no longer required because the structure is now one occupancy instead of two. (In technical terms, the wall is no longer a demising wall.)

Thanks, the obvious can be elusive.

We are talking about an electrical inspector not a building inspector.

I have not met an electrical inspector yet that hands out building code violations. Of course they often have morning coffee with the building inspector and notes are compared.

 

[iwire]

My guess is that we are missing the point.
1) the OP claims that the Building inspector signed off the doors 2 years ago. Maybe by mistake.
2) the inspector is citing Article 230 about services

I do not believe I am missing the point.

It is not the repsonsibility of the Electrical inspector to call out Fire doors.
If the doors were on the plans then that is going to be a AHJ building official dillemma and not the Electricians or the Electrical inspector. ( unless the EI is a all in one. )

I agree.

But it is clearly the responsibility of the EI to enforce the NEC and if the building has changed from two to one he has a point.

 

[david luchini]

My guess is that we are missing the point.
1) the OP claims that the Building inspector signed off the doors 2 years ago. Maybe by mistake.
2) the inspector is citing Article 230 about services

It is not the repsonsibility of the Electrical inspector to call out Fire doors.
If the doors were on the plans then that is going to be a AHJ building official dillemma and not the Electricians or the Electrical inspector. ( unless the EI is a all in one. )

I think the electrical inspector is trying to do them a favor. He found a 230.2 violation. He is willing to consider the spaces as separate buildings as long as there is a fire rating maintained. Replacing a couple of doors is probably a lot cheaper than redoing the service.

 

[mgookin]

My guess is that we are missing the point.
1) the OP claims that the Building inspector signed off the doors 2 years ago. Maybe by mistake.
2) the inspector is citing Article 230 about services

It is not the repsonsibility of the Electrical inspector to call out Fire doors.
If the doors were on the plans then that is going to be a AHJ building official dillemma and not the Electricians or the Electrical inspector. ( unless the EI is a all in one. )

That's not quite correct.

OP says the building inspector signed off on a demising wall and then they put the (non-rated) doors in.

The doors were never on any building plans.

And to say one inspector in a building department is not going to give a heads up to the inspector for another trade is unreasonable.

It sounds like they're giving them the cheap way out. Instead of combining services and all that, just make those doors rated doors and the problem goes away.

 

[GoldDigger]

I think the electrical inspector is trying to do them a favor. He found a 230.2 violation. He is willing to consider the spaces as separate buildings as long as there is a fire rating maintained. Replacing a couple of doors is probably a lot cheaper than redoing the service.

:thumbsup:

 

[Sierrasparky]

Adding a fire rated door does not change the rules for 230.
One more wrong does not make a right.
The more serious issue is does the wall need to maintain a fire rating.
Multiple services are allowed.

 

[north star]

~ ~ | ~ ~

safetyjoe,

IMO, your OP sounds like a you need to schedule a meeting to
go and visit the Building Official in your location.......The issues
of having actual fire rated doors being installed is a building
code issue that could involve the NEC as well.

So that you have a clear understanding of what is being
required and requested from the EI, ...go have a cordial, civil,
respectful meeting with the BO and discuss the situation.

No one on this Forum can provide you an accurate answer,
because no one on here knows all of the details.
Get an accurate answer from the BO, and go from there !

~ ~ | ~ ~

 

[Sierrasparky]

That's not quite correct.

OP says the building inspector signed off on a demising wall and then they put the (non-rated) doors in.

The doors were never on any building plans.

And to say one inspector in a building department is not going to give a heads up to the inspector for another trade is unreasonable.

It sounds like they're giving them the cheap way out. Instead of combining services and all that, just make those doors rated doors and the problem goes away.

Where does the OP state that the doors were installed after the building inspection.
"The building inspector approved the work 2 years ago, but sent us a letter that the electrical inspector told him that it is not correct due the NEC 2011 230.2 and 230.72."

If the demising wall was new then, how does 230 come into play as a violation when it was first built? What some are saying that building a demising wall this would allow a second service.

Something else is going on here and it appears it is a 2 year old issue.

 

[GoldDigger]

I read that as the wall being as old as the hills (or the services) and the doors being installed two years ago, but only the OP knows for sure.

 

[mgookin]

I read that as the wall being as old as the hills (or the services) and the doors being installed two years ago, but only the OP knows for sure.

Ha! I thought it was 2 year old wall and they cut the openings (probably to combine tenant spaces) sometime between getting that 2-hour wall permit signed off and when the electric inspector showed up on a presumed recently issued electric permit. Why else would electric inspector be on the property?

So let's all agree that we all disagree on what OP says.

OP: Please come back and provide more info as to what you have, which was done when, what's going on there today that brought inspectors to the property in the first place, etc. Thanks!

 

[Deleted member 139766]

There isn't enough information provided to make a judgment call on the violation you have been given. For example, it could be that the wall is an area separation wall with no openings allowed. It sounds as though your jurisdiction has specialty inspectors so you would be better served to consult the building inspector. Obviously, there must be one involved if you cut in a door.