- Occupation
- Licensed Electrician
Ummm, no. But if you have a sink, a stove, a bathroom, and bed you do have a dwelling unit. Nothing to be scared of.
Fire Station & AFCI
- Thread starter Dennis Alwon
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
First that does not make the NEC a subsection of anything, it is just one of many building codes that are adopted. If one of the amendments that may have been adopted when the NEC was adopted, make it subject to other codes, then it would be. Lacking that it is a stand alone code and the other codes do not change that.
As far as my state, the adoption of the NEC is not at the state level.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
No one has said anything remotely close to that.
If your house meets the definition of a "place of assembly" then the rules in 518 would apply, but I highly doubt that your house was designed or intended for occupancy by 100 or more people. Even if you would have a gathering of 100 or more people at your house it still would not be a "place of assembly" as the definition does not say that you have a "place of assembly" based on the number of people that are actually present in the building. It is only based on being designed or intended for occupancy by 100 or more.
Bars and amusement parks are not defined in the NEC so that would be a case where you would have to look to other codes.
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
Exactly. Now you have it. It was "built" as a firestation not a dwelling unit!
- Location
- Massachusetts
No now you still don't get it.
If it is built with the following complete and independent living facilities for one or more persons, including permanent provisions for living, sleeping, cooking, and sanitation the part of the building that contains that is a dwelling unit.
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
I think that a single unit means a single structure. That is why we define two-family and multi-family. How do you interpret single unit?
Dwelling Unit. A single unit, providing complete and independent
living facilities for one or more persons, including
permanent provisions for living, sleeping, cooking, and
sanitation.
So a firehouse would be a single family dwelling since it has only one dwelling unit!
Dwelling, One-Family. A building that consists solely of
one dwelling unit.
What is an independed living facility? Would my tent qualify if I had a outhouse and a fire pit? Doesn't say where the provisions have to be does it?
Dwelling Unit. A single unit, providing complete and independent
living facilities for one or more persons, including
permanent provisions for living, sleeping, cooking, and
sanitation.
So a firehouse would be a single family dwelling since it has only one dwelling unit!
Dwelling, One-Family. A building that consists solely of
one dwelling unit.
What is an independed living facility? Would my tent qualify if I had a outhouse and a fire pit? Doesn't say where the provisions have to be does it?
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
Did you follow 210.52 requirements? If considered a dwelling unit you would have to. It has been at least 15-20 years since I was last in Army barracks, and that was as an occupant/user of the facility and not as an electrician. The building had some age on it at that time so AFCI likely was not even a twinkle in some engineers mind at the time
Say that around here and I would respond with "what building code?" State Fire Marshal inspects public access buildings but not in same way as building inspection is done in other places. They are mostly concerned with egress concerns, draft barriers in attics and crawl spaces, fire rated walls and doors in certain areas, sprinkler protection in certain cases or sizes of buildings and ADA compliance. They are not going to come and say you did not install wide enough or deep enough footings or use a heavy enough beam to carry the structural load in a certain area. There is no dwelling unit building inspector at all other than local jurisdictions that have a building code and inspection AHJ. Electrical AHJ is statewide though if outside areas that have a local jurisdiction.
Exactly my point of view with the fire station. If there is sleeping area, cooking area, and restrooms all in one area - it may be considered a dwelling unit. If you have a sleeping area in one section of facility, have to cross the area where fire trucks are parked to go to a dining facility, and maybe the restrooms are on an adjacent wall of the truck room along with some offices ....there is no dwelling unit within that described facility.
Firestation may just be the name of the facility. Does not mean it can not contain a dwelling unit, does not mean it could not contain assembly areas, or hazardous location areas, or even health care areas.
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
Dwelling Unit. A single unit, providing complete and independent
living facilities for one or more persons, including
permanent provisions for living, sleeping, cooking, and
sanitation.
Your not aloud to 'live' in a fire station (generally). You work there. There are complete and independent facilities, but not for 'living.' They are for working. How do I know that? See below.
Example: An extended stay hotel is rented by its occupant. This rent establishes a tenant/landlord relationship, if you will. Firefighters don't pay rent and are not occupying the space for free either. They are paid to be there, this is an important distinction. In fact they are most likely governed by a 'working agreement' (not a living agreement) or employment contract they have agreed to show up to the building and 'work', not live.
living facilities for one or more persons, including
permanent provisions for living, sleeping, cooking, and
sanitation.
Your not aloud to 'live' in a fire station (generally). You work there. There are complete and independent facilities, but not for 'living.' They are for working. How do I know that? See below.
Example: An extended stay hotel is rented by its occupant. This rent establishes a tenant/landlord relationship, if you will. Firefighters don't pay rent and are not occupying the space for free either. They are paid to be there, this is an important distinction. In fact they are most likely governed by a 'working agreement' (not a living agreement) or employment contract they have agreed to show up to the building and 'work', not live.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
That does not mean there can not be an area that meets the NEC definition of a dwelling unit, just like in the hotel. The hotel manager very well may have a unit that they actually do live in, and do personal things while "off duty".
- Location
- Massachusetts
No one has to live there at any time, it just has to have provisions for it.
Yes. There are no 'living' provisions. Sleeping, cooking and sanitation yes, living? No the building is for working, employment, providing a service. You simply cannot live there. No one claims transient or permanent residence there, it would not be allowed by the owner (think fire chief/political subdivision head)
Forget for a moment it's a government building. A private company has a fire brigade, they fill a fire station with employees whom work for them. They do not come there for free, it's not a rented space. If they are living there are they then squatters? No, employees there doing the employers bidding. And, they can be told to leave whenever the employer decides. Can't you just be sent away from your 'living space'? I'm not going to get into the nuances of at-will and union contracted employees, but do you see the space is built for employees, not residents?
I know you disagree, I'm not trying to change your opinion. Im hoping to show employees are not 'living' at work, they are working.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
It really doen't matter what they are doing....the physical facilities permit you to live there. If the physical facilities meet the definition of a dwelling unit, it is a dwelling unit no matter what you do with the space.
As fas a living there I am aware of firefighers in departments that permit unlimited shift trades and the "live" at the fire station for 30 days and then they "live" at home for 60 days.
- Location
- Massachusetts
I don't see how what is being done has anything to do with it.
- Occupation
- Licensed Electrician
I agree.
Yes.
And by the definition below its says ....for living, sleeping, cooking AND sanitation....
Dwelling Unit. A single unit, providing complete and independent
living facilities for one or more persons, including
permanent provisions for living, sleeping, cooking, and
sanitation.
All four are not provided. There is no way to live there. You very well may spend 30 days continuously in the building, but you do not 'live' or 'dwell'. For 30 days, you work.
When you leave the fire station, you would supposedly return to another place you dwell. Dwelling or living implies you may come and go freely. This is not so in a fire station. You are under another's control to a large degree. Not so at home, ok maybe depending on your wife.
And by the definition below its says ....for living, sleeping, cooking AND sanitation....
Dwelling Unit. A single unit, providing complete and independent
living facilities for one or more persons, including
permanent provisions for living, sleeping, cooking, and
sanitation.
All four are not provided. There is no way to live there. You very well may spend 30 days continuously in the building, but you do not 'live' or 'dwell'. For 30 days, you work.
When you leave the fire station, you would supposedly return to another place you dwell. Dwelling or living implies you may come and go freely. This is not so in a fire station. You are under another's control to a large degree. Not so at home, ok maybe depending on your wife.
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- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
You have the physical facilities to permit you to live there. That is all the code requires, just because some rule says you can't "live" there does change anything, it is still a dwelling unit by definition.
- Occupation
- Licensed Electrician
Whether or not some one "lives" there is of no relevance. Don said it better.
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If youve actually spent time in a fire station, you may feel like its 'living' but its not. By the dwelling unit defintion, the space has to provide 'living' space, you cannot live there, it's working plain and simple. By defintion its not a dwelling unit.
In fact you cannot dwell there either, so its not a dwelling unit:
Dictionary.com:
Dwelling
1.*a building or place of shelter to live in; place of residence; abode; home.
A fire station is not a place of residence, abode or home.
I can fix the fire truck in the bay, but it's just really to house it. Since I have the facilities to fix the truck should the bay be classified as a repair shop? Im not repairing them, but I could. Just like I'm not dwelling or living in the fire station, but I could.
In fact you cannot dwell there either, so its not a dwelling unit:
Dictionary.com:
Dwelling
1.*a building or place of shelter to live in; place of residence; abode; home.
A fire station is not a place of residence, abode or home.
I can fix the fire truck in the bay, but it's just really to house it. Since I have the facilities to fix the truck should the bay be classified as a repair shop? Im not repairing them, but I could. Just like I'm not dwelling or living in the fire station, but I could.
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jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
Click on the link in my post #48. Might change your mind!
- Status