Fixing Capacitive Coupling (Phantom Voltage) issues with pull down resistor

Your formula only applies to a wye system, which is not common except as 208Y/120 and 480Y/277.
You like have a nominal 240V Delta 3-phase 4-Wire system. This system has one of the delta windings center tapped at 120V. These are often called wild or high leg systems because the B phase to Neutral is at 208V not the 120V which is on the A and C phases.
(y)Got it. Thank you for clarifying that. Would running 230V 3-phase + Neutral + Gnd in same conduit 2500ft cause an induced voltage in the wires?. Thinking out loud about my 44V phantom source.
 
It is an interesting possibility, and also a clear _difference_ between this system and the other similar systems that don't have the problem.

A 'high leg delta' has 3 'hot' conductors and 1 'grounded' conductor, and is not 'balanced' in voltage around the grounded conductor.

(Very hand wavy:) Imagine a conduit with 3 hot conductors, 1 neutral conductor, and 1 'signal' conductor supplied by a balanced wye system. Each of the wires is capacitively coupled together, so each of the 'hot' wires is 'pulling' the voltage of the signal wire. But all 3 hot wires are balanced with respect to neutral, so the _average_ voltage impressed on the signal wire is near the voltage of the neutral wire.

Now do the same thing with a high leg delta supply. The voltage of the hot wires is not balanced relative to the 'grounded' conductor. The average voltage impressed on the signal wire will be 20 - 60 volts. Your 44V phantom source fits that rather wide window.

Are the other systems fed by 120/240V single phase supplies, or by 208/120V (or 240/139V) three phase supplies?
 
It is an interesting possibility, and also a clear _difference_ between this system and the other similar systems that don't have the problem.

A 'high leg delta' has 3 'hot' conductors and 1 'grounded' conductor, and is not 'balanced' in voltage around the grounded conductor.

(Very hand wavy:) Imagine a conduit with 3 hot conductors, 1 neutral conductor, and 1 'signal' conductor supplied by a balanced wye system. Each of the wires is capacitively coupled together, so each of the 'hot' wires is 'pulling' the voltage of the signal wire. But all 3 hot wires are balanced with respect to neutral, so the _average_ voltage impressed on the signal wire is near the voltage of the neutral wire.

Now do the same thing with a high leg delta supply. The voltage of the hot wires is not balanced relative to the 'grounded' conductor. The average voltage impressed on the signal wire will be 20 - 60 volts. Your 44V phantom source fits that rather wide window.

Are the other systems fed by 120/240V single phase supplies, or by 208/120V (or 240/139V) three phase supplies?
Thanks for sharing that. All 4 units are supplied by the 230V 3-phase each but #38 unit's 120V control power is off the Delta in the electrical panel. The other 3 units have their own internal 230V/120 transformers supplying their control power.
 
Thanks for sharing that. All 4 units are supplied by the 230V 3-phase each but #38 unit's 120V control power is off the Delta in the electrical panel. The other 3 units have their own internal 230V/120 transformers supplying their control power.
Change your problem unit to a local control power transformer instead of using the neutral. Make it look like the non problem ones.
 
Change your problem unit to a local control power transformer instead of using the neutral. Make it look like the non problem ones.
Point taken. Unfortunately, the 44V phantom is on the wires that don't have the 120V at any moment of the actuator position. A standard open/stop/close (4-wire)control system with open/close position indication will have 120V on the stop switch feeding both the open and close switches(momentary). But on the downstream side of the open/close switches you have this 44V sitting on it and also if the actuator is in closed position, obviously the 120V will be on the close but the hot side(dead) of the open indicator will have this 44V sitting on it. So the actuator is seeing both opened and closed at the same time and refuses to budge. Regardless if it's an external 120V or a internal 120V transformer.
 
Regardless if it's an external 120V or a internal 120V transformer.

There is a key difference between the external 120V supply and the internal supply.

The external supply is part of a large system with its own grounding. The internal supply is grounded locally in the same box as the actuators.

Maybe what is happening on the other actuators is that they are getting the same 44V capacitive coupling, but that coupling is showing up both on the control wire and the grounded terminal of the internal transformer. Net result is 0V between actuator control input and the signal reference. But when you take the 120V control signal from the external supply the 44V only shows up on the control wire.

Remember that a single wire can never have a voltage, you might measure voltage between that wire and a reference. Your 44V phantom could actually be induced on what you think is your 0V reference.

I'd suggest an additional set of measurements: measure from your control wire to ground, actuator neutral terminal and to each of the three phase 'hot' wires. Also measure the voltage between the actuator neutral or reference terminal and ground.
 
To @CoolWill : The issue with pulldown resistors is not the heating when removing the 'phantom', it is the heating when the circuit is supposed to be on. The 'phantom' coupling here has an impedance of about 46K. Place this in series with a 500 ohm resistor and the heating on the resistor is negligible. The problem comes when the control switch is toggled and now you have 120V across that 500 ohm resistor.

To @Shuntme : You say "The actuator says 19V will interfere with the electronics controls but did not specify if it's a actual or a phantom voltage specification." This suggests a conceptual error on your part. "Phantom voltage" is actual voltage, not some different beast. The reason it is called 'phantom' is because the source of the voltage is very high impedance, so a low impedance load will make this voltage go away. But this voltage is every bit as real as the output of any voltage divider. Instead of thinking of 'phantom voltage', think 'real voltage in series with a high impedance' and you will have a better understanding of what you need to deal with.

IMHO there are several open questions:
1) Is the source of this 'phantom voltage' capacitive coupling between energized wires and the control wire, or is it coupling from the grounded conduit to an _ungrounded_ control wire. I think that the grounding of this system hasn't been nailed down.

2) Is the source of this 'phantom voltage' capacitive coupling between wires or something else. The current (2.6 mA) is high enough that I suspected something like an LED indicator built into the switch (sort of like the residential lighted switches that function by passing a tiny amount of current through the load when off), but the 3000 foot long run is enough to make 2.6mA of capacitive coupled current quite plausible.

As to solutions:

You describe this system as "seven wires per actuator controls(3-open/off/close + power(L/N) + 2 indicators(position)" I read this that you have 3 switches that can energize (connect to L power) one of 3 wires to make your system do something.

Can you change the control switches to be double pole, so that they either connect to power or connect to neutral? In this way the wire will either be actively powered at 120V, or actively attached to your 0V reference. I think right now the control wire is left floating, which is the key problem.

A shielded pair as @herding_cats describes is an elegant approach but expensive at 3000 feet.

A pull down resistor is simple but as you've noted will have problems with heat dissipation. Some sort of active circuit that has a fixed current draw would be better; some circuit that draws say 2.6mA over the range of 5V to 120V AC would pull down the phantom voltage nicely, but dissipate 0.3W when energized.

-Jonathan
At .18 Cents/ft?
Checked and checked and checked. #38(previous), #39, #40 & #41 have 230/120V internal control transformers. However this new actuator has external 120V supply and the neutral is connected at the panel.
Out of curiosity, the 230/120V electrical panel has 4-wires with Gnd. I get 230V 3-phase and 120V -N on one of the legs. My electrician told me he had to install the 120V breaker on a certain leg of the 230V to get 120V ............... ummmmmmmmmmmmmm. I'll have to look at it myself to verify cause 230- N should be 230/1.732 = 133V and it shouldn't matter which leg of the 230V you connect to at the panel. How am I getting a 120V to N and why only on one particular leg of the 230V(per electrician)
What am I missing???
DO NOT connect any 120v loads to the wild leg. It will destroy the load/motor/actuator.
 
There is a key difference between the external 120V supply and the internal supply.

The external supply is part of a large system with its own grounding. The internal supply is grounded locally in the same box as the actuators.

Maybe what is happening on the other actuators is that they are getting the same 44V capacitive coupling, but that coupling is showing up both on the control wire and the grounded terminal of the internal transformer. Net result is 0V between actuator control input and the signal reference. But when you take the 120V control signal from the external supply the 44V only shows up on the control wire.

Remember that a single wire can never have a voltage, you might measure voltage between that wire and a reference. Your 44V phantom could actually be induced on what you think is your 0V reference.

I'd suggest an additional set of measurements: measure from your control wire to ground, actuator neutral terminal and to each of the three phase 'hot' wires. Also measure the voltage between the actuator neutral or reference terminal and ground.
Ok. I will do that.
PS: There is no issue controlling the actuator locally. Open/stop/close, open/close position indicators all work fine. The actuator remote controls just do not work when placed in Remote. Everything works fine even in remote local/SCADA when we get rid of this 44V(been tested), lol
There are 3 separate control wires, and they are using 12ga conductors. Plus they would need to re pull 3000 foot run.

I think it would be a bit more than .18 cents per foot :)
8 control wires to be exact. open/stop/close/power 120V(internal Tx not needed if external)/ open indicator/close indicator/neutral/Gnd. Also external conduit run attached to face of Dam. 24000ft of wire + 3/4" rigid 3000ft + LBs & fittings +Contractor. It's a last resort kept open.
 
Appreciate the community looking into this issue. I am sure its got everyone's curiosity peaked and a little challenge.
Here' something else that baffles me as mentioned earlier. All the four actuators control wires(say 8 each x 4 =32) run in the same conduit from the Dam release tunnel to the remote control panel. Only units #38 & #39 have the 44V present on the wires that do not have 120V present to N/Gnd at the time. Units #40 & #41 only have like 2V which is acceptable as the open/close position indication Leds work properly(open lit when valve is open and close lit when closed). Unit #38/#39 both position indication Leds light up no matter what position due to the 44V being above the Leds threshold voltage. Both Leds lighting up is not a major concern. I can dump the 44V at the Lite terminals and it will go away other than the heat dissipation at the hot led. I can probably duplicate this inside the actuator terminal block(seal tight cover) but the heat may present a secondary issue with the actuator electronics. Just trying to provide as much relevant infor as possible to shed some more light.
Thank you all.
 
Actions moving Forward:
1. Separate the 230V 3-phase at the JB for the Unit #38(10ft)
2. Test control wires at Actuator and remote panel without 230V or 120V. If absent/below 19V(actuator spec) or </= 20V( per actuator tech. they ran into 20V phantom before & it did not affect actuator operation)
3. Power on 120V and retest both locations. If like #2 above then run 230V in liquid tight flex(metal gnd) and connect
4. Retest. If like #2 above then power up the 230V and retest. if like #2 above then try exercising the actuator from Remote
and hopefully all's well.
 
This is a data bulletin, Schneider Electric/Square D last published in 1999, that deals with problem caused by voltage drop and capacitive coupling. It was written for larger loads, like relays and starters, but it has some good points about local versus remote switching.
 
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