Fixing the NEC

Master Nater said:
needlessly drive up the price
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There are so many things needlessly driving up prices and other costs. I live in California so my list may not apply to you

1. Residential fire sprinklers. Fire chiefs went on record saying unnecessary, but that was after the law was taking effect. Nobody asked them.
2. Energy efficiency standards for gas furnaces. You will never see payback on a condensing furnace because one breakdown will cancel all savings and an early major replacement event will put you way behind an 80% model.
3. Heat pump water heaters: see above
4. Various building efficiency standards: never see payback.
5. Fancy appliances that break and get replaced within 10 years, meanwhile I still run my 2002 refrigerators and my 1970s freezer that I have done minor repairs to once every 15 years or so
6. All sorts of construction standards that make every car look like a jelly bean SUV, meanwhile I still drive and actively use my 200x vehicles mainly because I know how to fix them.
 
Master Nater said:
i said it back in post #68, but i'll re-iterate. every stupid code, and overly-redundant code, and every manufacturing lobbyist-incentivized code (like AFCIs) that the code board members keep shoving into everyone's faces is just another excuse for every-day people to say "i've had enough." and do you know what? so have i ... and many other electricians who know that putting a freezer on a GFI is going to cause OUR customers to lose about $3000 worth of meat, when it randomly decides to trip.

so, what do these every-day people do to get away from this good-idea-fairy running wild? they make the choice to hire unlicensed handymen, or their "cousin's, friend's, uncle who used to be an electrician in zimbabwe" to do their electrical work!

all of these ridiculous codes, that needlessly drive up the price of a quality electrical installation only incentivise non-electricians to hire other non-electricians to do their work, because of all of the stupid stuff that licensed elctricians will be forced to do. there's a reason that the very first article of NFPA 70 is article 90 - PRACTICAL SAFEGUARDING.

what's worse is, this insanity and lobbyist mentality defeats the entire purpose of having electrical and building codes in the first place.
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Very valid point. I put in a receptacle for my freezer and you can bet she ain't gfi protected. I'll chance a tickle grabbing the handle over throwing the contents away because a ghost snuck by and pressed the test button. I have also never put a sump pump on a GFCI. I'm not dealing with a flooded basement call because a GFCI self tested itself to death.
 
Birken Vogt said:
There are so many things needlessly driving up prices and other costs. I live in California so my list may not apply to you

1. Residential fire sprinklers. Fire chiefs went on record saying unnecessary, but that was after the law was taking effect. Nobody asked them.
2. Energy efficiency standards for gas furnaces. You will never see payback on a condensing furnace because one breakdown will cancel all savings and an early major replacement event will put you way behind an 80% model.
3. Heat pump water heaters: see above
4. Various building efficiency standards: never see payback.
5. Fancy appliances that break and get replaced within 10 years, meanwhile I still run my 2002 refrigerators and my 1970s freezer that I have done minor repairs to once every 15 years or so
6. All sorts of construction standards that make every car look like a jelly bean SUV, meanwhile I still drive and actively use my 200x vehicles mainly because I know how to fix them.
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I'll anecdotally disagree with the heat pump water heater. I live in NH, and the electric rate is about $.23/kWhr. My heat pump water heater paid for itself ($1750) in about 2-1/2 years over the electric resistive I had before. I installed it May of 23, so if it failed today I would put in another one and it would still be cheaper than installing a regular electric. In the summer it costs about $5/no for hot water, and the dead of winter when my basement is 45-50 degrees, it costs about $22 in high demand mode. A regular tank would be $70-80/mo.
 
hbiss said:
Switching to the metric system in the US was unanimously turned down each time it came up since 1926 when it was first proposed. Since we do not use the metric system, it is improper for an American publishing company that primarily publishes for US consumption to put SI units before US customary units. It's just an example of how the CMPs fail to think.

Further, what purpose does emphasizing SI units serve? For example, nobody here uses a metric tape measure to measure panel clearance, conduit diameter, support spacing or a million other things we measure every day.

-Hal
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IIRC it happened before they started putting SI units first throughout the NEC - they changed the maximum height for switch/breaker handles from 6 foot 6 inches to 6 foot 7 inches. Which is almost right at 2.0 meters.
 
Birken Vogt said:
1. Residential fire sprinklers. Fire chiefs went on record saying unnecessary, but that was after the law was taking effect. Nobody asked them.
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Given the cost of around $1 to $1.75 per square foot, there is no question that I would install a fire sprinkler system if I build a new house. Dwelling unit fire sprinkler systems are required by one of the model building codes, but most cities that it out when they adopt that code.
Very surprised to see a fire official say that are not needed...that is very rare in my experience.
 
going_commando said:
I'll anecdotally disagree with the heat pump water heater. I live in NH, and the electric rate is about $.23/kWhr. My heat pump water heater paid for itself ($1750) in about 2-1/2 years over the electric resistive I had before. I installed it May of 23, so if it failed today I would put in another one and it would still be cheaper than installing a regular electric. In the summer it costs about $5/no for hot water, and the dead of winter when my basement is 45-50 degrees, it costs about $22 in high demand mode. A regular tank would be $70-80/mo.
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But what will be the total life cycle costs when the heat pump or digital part breaks and needs to be repaired?
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
Given the cost of around $1 to $1.75 per square foot, there is no question that I would install a fire sprinkler system if I build a new house. Dwelling unit fire sprinkler systems are required by one of the model building codes, but most cities that it out when they adopt that code.
Very surprised to see a fire official say that are not needed...that is very rare in my experience.
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It is just one of the many, many extra requirements heaped upon a new build. Every one of them seems manageable by itself, but when you add them all together, it is one of the many factors that make home ownership unaffordable to young people today.

How about this? Let the people who will own and live in the house make their own decision. Stop forcing them to do anything.
 
Birken Vogt said:
How about this? Let the people who will own and live in the house make their own decision. Stop forcing them to do anything.
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In the big picture, codes are to make the entire community safer.

Constructing a new home has almost always been more expensive than buying an existing home.
 
Birken Vogt said:
But what will be the total life cycle costs when the heat pump or digital part breaks and needs to be repaired?
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They will still be lower. I have saved $1900 over running a standard electric water heater, which is greater than the purchase price of the heat pump water heater. If I have to buy them on a 4 year cycle it will still be cheaper due to the cost of operating a standard tank. If it breaks, I will fix it. I have an EPA 608 universal refrigerant certification, so I can get whatever parts or refrigerant I need if it gets a leak or something. Those are the only parts I need to worry about, because on the town water I currently have, tank type water heaters last 20+ years anyway.
 
ya I read it- that some smuck saying his opinion I said they build above 100 year flood you said no they don’t- that article never said it’s under the 100 year- there not keeping the 2’ over . But still keeping the 100 year mark and gettting ride of the hypothetical new level with the world exploding climate scare
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
So get rid of the NEC and all building and plumbing codes and let the buyer beware.
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I agree with Dons sentiment here. The other option is something I would have said when I was 20. I have come to the conclusion I dont know more than the code people. If it wasnt for code why would anyone need us.
I was wiring a big pole barn for a sheet metal contractor that feels he is a "rebel" so codes are foolish,, the very reason we got them, the very reason they have to have a rule says cant simply pull a bunch of cables thru a hole cut with snips. Dont need those silly ground wires.
Guy wondered why I quit,,, I make a legal circuit and then he comes along and cant bother hooking up a ground wire cause he doesnt have the nut driver or a screwdriver in his hand,, therefore must be stupid and not needed.
This is why we got codes, sheet over it all,,, looks normal till you open a box.
 
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