Flat Rate Contracting

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emahler

Senior Member
wasabivan said:
Ive been operating as a EC for almost 10 years using the going rate (currently $70/hr.)thing for my pricing structure and marking my materials up 30%. i divide my cost by .7 which is 30% on the cost. not 30% of the cost. its a retail trick i learned. at the end of this last year my net profit was 8%.
this year ive been learning turbobid software. cost based bidding (what a concept!)
but i have to say i used this system to BID jobs. flat rate. i always quote a job. i tell the customer what i'll do the job for win or loose. usually i win. because i bid the same type of work over and over. (specialize). one of my specialties is Manufactured Homes. working on a T&M basis is a grind. If someone were to publish a flat rate bid book id buy it. actually thats what bidding software is.
on another note. i got into being a EC Cause i was a really good wire monkey, but i didnt know squat about running a business. programs like barebones business. are a must even if your doing ok. I highly recommend the E-Myth by michael Gerber. i read all three of his books and then bought the revisited on CD so i can listen in my truck.
cost based bidding works like this, labor cost plus material cost. multiply by a percent(approx 13% according to MIke Holt) to add for overhead and multiply by a percent for profit (lets say 15%).

2 quick things...there are about a dozen companies that sell flat rate systems...

2nd - do you actually make money billing $70/hr for T&M? or do you make money when you use $70 as your hourly rate for quoted work, and you get the job done in less time than allotted? thereby making your actual hourly rate higher than $70...
 

tmbrk

Senior Member
Location
Illinois
I understand that those who are members of ESI or Nexstar paid alot of money for those services so I'm definately not asking for free information or content. But which one would you prefer? Is there a system (ESI, Nexstar or other) that anyone could recommend? What are the costs? Please feel free to PM me if you don't feel comfortable posting publicly. Thank You.
 

MJJBEE

Member
romexking said:
That is about the most absurd thing that I've seen in this thread yet. $5/hr overhead? What if they only had 5 guys in the field? Do you think that $50,000 will cover the owner's salary, a office worker, rent, insurance, ect. ect., ect?

You can't really be serious, can you?


You have to understand their business. We may have a slightly artificially low rate however if you look at my math employee benefits are included in that cost. I will tell you I have never signed a T&M rate of over $ 100/ hr (except OT and After Hours) . This means either I always hire cheap electricians or someone is making money at that price. Or they make most of their money on Bid work and use my work to fill in the lows at near cost. I don't claim to understand all the information about costs. This is also close to the rate I use to estimate bid work for budgeting process.

I live in the west not California. We have no Sales Tax there goes some of the difference. It is a highly regional thing and I wouldn't expect to see the same rates in a small town where there is less competition in fact i have a site that I support I always estimate things at $ 85/hr because i can't get electricians cheaper. Again it all depends on cost of living ect ect ect. I also understand that all the pricing information depends upon your costs and so does your getting a job. Also I very rarely hire an electrician for small jobs even my T&M work is fairly large and it's all industrial and union electricians. The smallest T&M job I have done in the last 5 years was $ 21,000. I may get better rates because of that. I was just saying i paid just over $ 75 an hour last week so it seemd like a normal price for me.
 

wasabivan

Member
emahler said:
2 quick things...there are about a dozen companies that sell flat rate systems...

2nd - do you actually make money billing $70/hr for T&M? or do you make money when you use $70 as your hourly rate for quoted work, and you get the job done in less time than allotted? thereby making your actual hourly rate higher than $70...


Thanks for the info i will startl looking at them. as to youre second. I dont normally do T&M i just use $70 per hour as a base for figuring how much to charge for labor, for example lets say im quoting a hot tub. i would guess that i could hook it up in say 5 hours. or$350 for labor. then i would add my material say i figured my cost for them at $250. then i would divide the $250 by .7 to get my mark up on materials only. thats how ive been doing it for 9 plus years. i dont do T&M because of several reasons.
dont want someone standing over me with a stop watch complaining about the time spend sourcing materials or whatever.
peoplewho agreeto my bid price are less likly to moan about the bill. a T&M customer will every time.
just last week i sent a guy in a van 10+ miles out of town, he was on site for 20 min. but there was the drive out and back then office time invoicing them. then the customer has the nerve to drive to my office to complain about the $70 invoice i sent him. I rarely do T&M. and suggest that you quit if you do.

This site is cool. i like the ideas.
 

satcom

Senior Member
wasabivan said:
Thanks for the info i will startl looking at them. as to youre second. I dont normally do T&M i just use $70 per hour as a base for figuring how much to charge for labor, for example lets say im quoting a hot tub. i would guess that i could hook it up in say 5 hours. or$350 for labor. then i would add my material say i figured my cost for them at $250. then i would divide the $250 by .7 to get my mark up on materials only. thats how ive been doing it for 9 plus years. i dont do T&M because of several reasons.
dont want someone standing over me with a stop watch complaining about the time spend sourcing materials or whatever.
peoplewho agreeto my bid price are less likly to moan about the bill. a T&M customer will every time.
just last week i sent a guy in a van 10+ miles out of town, he was on site for 20 min. but there was the drive out and back then office time invoicing them. then the customer has the nerve to drive to my office to complain about the $70 invoice i sent him. I rarely do T&M. and suggest that you quit if you do.

This site is cool. i like the ideas.

I would go the sams as you except i would figure the time for 7 hours not 5, because your day is finished after the 5 hours, what are you going to do for the other 2 hours, if the job takes 5 hours it is really a day rate figured at 7 hours. no business can make money giving away hours. My opinion and just a suggestion.
 

Tiger Electrical

Senior Member
satcom said:
I would go the sams as you except i would figure the time for 7 hours not 5, because your day is finished after the 5 hours, what are you going to do for the other 2 hours, if the job takes 5 hours it is really a day rate figured at 7 hours. no business can make money giving away hours. My opinion and just a suggestion.

That's been a tough one for me. I know I should be figuring jobs rounded up to half day or whole day. No matter how sweet a 2.5 hour or 5.5 hour job turns out, you rarely can put it together with another job to round out a full day. I usually try to do something productive in the office to fill out the day.

Dave
 

emahler

Senior Member
wasabivan said:
Thanks for the info i will startl looking at them. as to youre second. I dont normally do T&M i just use $70 per hour as a base for figuring how much to charge for labor, for example lets say im quoting a hot tub. i would guess that i could hook it up in say 5 hours. or$350 for labor. then i would add my material say i figured my cost for them at $250. then i would divide the $250 by .7 to get my mark up on materials only. thats how ive been doing it for 9 plus years. i dont do T&M because of several reasons.
dont want someone standing over me with a stop watch complaining about the time spend sourcing materials or whatever.
peoplewho agreeto my bid price are less likly to moan about the bill. a T&M customer will every time.
just last week i sent a guy in a van 10+ miles out of town, he was on site for 20 min. but there was the drive out and back then office time invoicing them. then the customer has the nerve to drive to my office to complain about the $70 invoice i sent him. I rarely do T&M. and suggest that you quit if you do.

This site is cool. i like the ideas.

google "maio success systems" "frank blau" "ellen rohr" "al levi" that is just a start...
 

jrannis

Senior Member
petersonra said:
This is one of the big problems with ECs. They are selling hours of work, and customers are buying some task they want done. Flat rate pricing focuses on what the customer wants to buy, as opposed to what the seller wants to sell. Want to guess which seller makes more money overall?

WOW you nailed it. Best comment I have heard on the subject so far!
 

wasabivan

Member
satcom said:
I would go the sams as you except i would figure the time for 7 hours not 5, because your day is finished after the 5 hours, what are you going to do for the other 2 hours, if the job takes 5 hours it is really a day rate figured at 7 hours. no business can make money giving away hours. My opinion and just a suggestion.

thats a good idea, i have done that in the past but have forgotten about the practice
 

brian john

Senior Member
Location
Leesburg, VA
Your pricing SEEMS low though I have not looked at your profile to see where you live.

The replace "OLD CBs" seems questionable and they missed something but the rest of the pricing seems in line.
 

hpe1087

Member
Location
Columbus, Ohio
Hope this doesn't create a bashing contest!

Hope this doesn't create a bashing contest!

It has been over a month since the last post on this subject. Either (1) emahle made a point about developing a proper pricing strategy and knowing one's own break even cost or (2) it isn't worth arguing over the issue and let's get back to working harder to loose more money.

I have been a contractor for 14 years and have finially realized that I need to do something different. I have grown through the commercial new work contracting part of my business, but profits have fallen short in our residential service/repair division. My T&M pricing hasn't worked very well with many of the same areas of complaints listed in this post. Customers complain about the time to "go" get materials, do paperwork, or other tasks that are really part of the job. They become clock watchers and try to have us knock off time for incidentals "they" feel are not part of the repair task.

I'm convinced that there are "NO" perfect solutions to the pricing strategy, but the flat rate system is more convincing to offer our customers for services performed. Why? 1.) No more clock watchers 2.) price agreed before the job begins 3.) allows the tech to focus on the repair and not the confrontation after repairs are completed 4.) opportunity to sell our customers on the "service" we offer as well as the skill 5.) company O.H. costs can be spread out among all customers in increments that are managable and accepted 6.) Creates good customer relations 7.) knowing true break even costs for "your" business structure

One point I'd like to share that I believe is important regarding either pricing format. No matter how you quote the job, there will ALWAYS be those who feel your price is too high and you will NOT be able to sell your service to them. Some customers shop based on price alone and some shop based on the desire for good service, skill, and reliablity after the sale.

Here's another analogy. Say there is a new car lot with (2) cars to be sold. (hard to imagine, but stay with me) One is priced at $15K and the other at $30K. There are those that will be attracted to the lower priced car because it will fit their budget, but one will need to sacrifice some luxuries to afford this car. Reliability might not be built into the lower priced car as well. The $30K car will inherently attract those that look for some of the luxury items that typically is included in a car at that price range. Warranty may be extended and the car may have a better reliability track record.

There will "ALWAYS" be those who will buy the lower price car because they don't need the high end luxuries or the price tag that goes with it. Conversely, there are those that will be attracted to the higher end priced car because they will expect those comfort levels and feel the price is worth the extras you receive. You get the picture.

Same holds true with our service industry. But, there is a difference. The electrician offering the low price, to meet those customers pricing needs, will more likely be replaced with another similar contractor who charges too little. Why? Because the first guy had gone out of business due to poor money management and low profits to maintain or grow the company. The cycle repeats itself time & time again. You think we'd learn from others mistakes! Look at it this way. Why would you establish your pricing levels based on what your friendly competition down the street charges? What if they charge too little, and in the attempt to be competitive, your pricing falls below your break even limits. It will not take too long before your business will fail.

Sorry for rambling, but I'm one who has learned from others and my mistakes and decided to do something about it. The flat rate system is by means a "silver bullet" but I do believe, if implemented properly with good training for your techs, our company will be one of those that will be around to service those maintenance agreements and customers for years to come. ;)
 

Sparky555

Senior Member
For me T&M seemed to work at the beginning. I wasn't very good at estimating, so it felt safe. I never seemed to have enough money for the bills & a decent paycheck for myself. Some years I'd skip a few paychecks to keep in business.

I had a very bad year after doing this for over 10 years. I did a lot of research & also did a breakeven calculation. The calculation was 25% more than my hourly rate. My options were to continue losing money or switch from T&M to contracting (or flat rate). Since then copper, steel & fuel costs have increased. I'm able to raise my task rates without drawing attention to it like I'd have with an increase in hourly rate.

Dave
 
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