Followspot

[holocron]

Hi there. I work at a small theatre and we recently purchased a couple of new followspots. They are CE listed but not UL listed.

A local inspector said we can not use them because they are not UL listed. Is this true?

I thought this doesn't apply to portable/temporary equipment.

Is there something specific in NEC? I can't find anything.

Thanks!

 

[iwire]

This is an excellent question, I really do not know.

I can't find anything in the NEC that requires the follow spot to be listed but a local area can have their own rules.

In general if an inspector prohibits anything you have a right to know what rule you have violated and where you can see it in writing for yourself.

 

[charlie b]

It is not the kind of requirement that would be covered by the NEC. If these lights are, as I suspect them to be, plug and cord connected, they are what their manufacturer wants them to be, and the NEC does not tell manufacturers how to build their products.

There may be a local code that applies, but I tend to doubt it. I would recommend asking the inspector to cite the specific code book, chapter, and verse that he is using to reject your installation. I would not accept an answer of, "Well, it's just code." Nail him down to specifics, and I will bet he will have no specifics to give.

 

[holocron]

Thanks. Is there anything in NEC requiring a UL (or an accepted testing body) to "approve" a portable device or lighting fixture that is plugged in and not hard wired to the building?

 

[rbalex]

It?s probably not too surprising that I agree with Bob and Charlie here with regard to local building codes; however, since there is an employer/employee relationship here, there is another AHJ involved also - Minnesota?s OSHA.

Minnesota has full ?final approval.? Essentially, that means FedOSHA thinks the Minnesota plan is ??"at least as effective" as the protection provided by the federal program.? The Federal plan requires the equipment you mentioned to be NRTL certified. I?m fairly certain the MinnOSHA will too.

 

[holocron]

Ah, OSHA. Hadn't thought about looking there. And it doesn't look like CE is a NRTL.

But in researching this, there are no other products, even equivalents by US manufacturers, that are UL listed.

Shouldn't that set a precedent?

 

[rbalex]

Please forgive me but I have no intention to analyse the Minnesota OSHA laws. This is extracted from the current FedOSHA Regulations:

1910.303(a)
Approval. The conductors and equipment required or permitted by this subpart shall be acceptable only if approved, as defined in Sec. 1910.399.

1910.399 (Definitions)
?
Approved. Acceptable to the authority enforcing this subpart. The authority enforcing this subpart is the Assistant Secretary of Labor for Occupational Safety and Health. The definition of "acceptable" indicates what is acceptable to the Assistant Secretary of Labor, and therefore approved within the meaning of this subpart.
?
Acceptable. An installation or equipment is acceptable to the Assistant Secretary of Labor, and approved within the meaning of this Subpart S:

(1) If it is accepted, or certified, or listed, or labeled, or otherwise determined to be safe by a nationally recognized testing laboratory recognized pursuant to ? 1910.7; or

(2) With respect to an installation or equipment of a kind that no nationally recognized testing laboratory accepts, certifies, lists, labels, or determines to be safe, if it is inspected or tested by another Federal agency, or by a State, municipal, or other local authority responsible for enforcing occupational safety provisions of the National Electrical Code, and found in compliance with the provisions of the National Electrical Code as applied in this subpart; or

(3) With respect to custom-made equipment or related installations that are designed, fabricated for, and intended for use by a particular customer, if it is determined to be safe for its intended use by its manufacturer on the basis of test data which the employer keeps and makes available for inspection to the Assistant Secretary and his authorized representatives.



​

The definitions (1910.399) are not actually ?in order.? I underlined a few things to put them in relevant order though. (The installation must be ?approved? ? ?approved? must be ?acceptable? ? the ?acceptable? laundry list)

If you can demonstrate that there is no equivalent listed product that meets your needs, the Minnesota equivalent to ?Acceptable (3)? may indeed be appropriate.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

Inspectors do not like to APPROVE products that are not LISTED. But they are permitted to APPROVE products that are not LISTED if they should so choose to. It is then their signature on the document and most will not provide their signature without some kind of "check" of the product, such as by an NRTL.

 

[mdshunk]

If it has a

marking, that ought to be good enough. That's generally a stricter set of rules anyhow. As my Dad would say, "It's all a money gimmick".

 

[frizbeedog]

....I only read this because the title was, Followspot.

Well I thought it was about dogs, and.....

I'll just move on now. Sorry. And good lick. :grin:

 

[jim dungar]

If it has a

marking, that ought to be good enough. That's generally a stricter set of rules anyhow. As my Dad would say, "It's all a money gimmick".

A NRTL listing means an independent agency has evaluated the equipment.

A CE label says you have to trust the manufacturer that they followed a set of standards when they built the equipment.

 

[dbuckley]

I'd have though that the body that licences the venue allowing the public in would be the most interested bunch; without that licence the venue cant open, and their rules can often be arbitrary.

 

[mdshunk]

A NRTL listing means an independent agency has evaluated the equipment.

A CE label says you have to trust the manufacturer that they followed a set of standards when they built the equipment.

I think my Dad is right.

 

[rexowner]

I think my Dad is right.

I think your Dad is right too.

When I worked for a manufacturer, we viewed some of
these geography/country marks as a form of legalized
extortion.

The fees were sometimes on a per unit basis, but it
was a business decision that it was less expensive to
maintain one line/inventory that qualified across
geographies, and pay the fee on each, rather than
pay the fees only when a product went into a specific
geography.

 

[dbuckley]

When I worked for a manufacturer, we viewed some of these geography/country marks as a form of legalized extortion.

Thats pretty much how the rest of the world views UL.

Compliance is just a cost of doing business...

 

[iwire]

As my Dad would say, "It's all a money gimmick".

I bet to a large degree your Dad was right. :smile:

But do you have a better plan?

I really like installing products with the 'feel good' sticker on them. If it was not there the inspections could be a nightmare. All of a sudden we would have each electrical inspector trying to apply the NEC to engineered equipment. Good luck with that. :grin:

Think of what the inside of a typical RTU looks like, multiple conductors under one lug, ground lugs on with sheet metal screws, overcurrent devices sometimes in parallel, conductors running 'unprotected'.

 

[brantmacga]

remove lights, get inspection, reinstall lights. i give you this info for half the price of a listing agency. send cash.

 

[mdshunk]

But do you have a better plan?

No, and neither did he.

 

[pbeasley]

In 20 years I have never had an issue with non-UL listed follow spots. But maybe I've just been lucky.

What kind of venue are you in. Various entertainment venues have different sets of rules, both OSHA and Electrical code, than standard commercial buildings. Something to keep in mind as you track this down.

 

[chris500]

You could always go the route of having UL do an on-site inspection. Additional costs obviously, but if the customer wants them and is willing to pay, a possible option.