Fraudulent Engineering

[johnv2340]

I'm not convinced a crime was committed
they did not represent themselfs as pe's
he gave them the work willingly
generally the pe law only applies to pe's and usually only provides for administrative punishment in all but extreme cases like loss of life or property
the board generally has juristiction over pe's

attaching his bond (if he has a general one, and not project specific) might be difficult without a contract or being named on the bond

his best bet imo is to contest the permit
go to the project owner and let him know what is happening, see if he will tell you if he was billed for engineering services (this may show he violated the law, ie, selling services)
get a lawyer

I have no desire to hire a lawyer or go after his contractor's bond, it is my job to inform the necessary parties that I did not intend to have those drawings submitted to the city, and that's all I plan to do. The stamp was originally used to let the utility company know that a P.E. was working on the preliminary drawings, not to mislead the building department that I thought these drawings were suitable as construction documents. There wasn't even any grounding or bonding details included in the set, which is pretty important for installations involving the main point of service.

 

[johnv2340]

That invalidation should happen with a cryptographic digital signature of a PDF, but is not possible with a simple digital ink image.
The OP did not describe the type of signature involved.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

Correct, I did not use a cryptographic digital signature although I should look into it for the future.

 

[Besoeker]

Hello,

I know this is rarely encountered but I would like input from anyone who has come across something like this before or has some good advice to offer. I am a registered electrical P.E. in the state of California. I was contacted by someone looking for engineering services to add a number of meters for EV chargers in a large highrise condominium. Everything was very informal and he mentioned getting me on a retainer of $10K once this project got more involved. He mentioned that there were other highrise buildings in the area that he was in negotiations with as well.

I put together a preliminary set of drawings showing proposed meter locations, existing single line diagrams, load schedule, feeders, etc. The purpose was to get enough information put down on plans to get a meeting with the power company since it required alterations to the main service. A digital picture of my stamp and signature were placed on the drawings sent to the utility service planner. At this point the job dragged on for nearly a year without much progress. I was asked to perform more work at which point I declined, stating that I had not been paid for any of the work I had done to date. It was the last I heard from him.

Yesterday, over two years from the last correspondence, I get a call from someone asking about a job I engineered. Not recognizing the address I had him forward me the plans so I could review. Someone had taken my original preliminary drawings, meant specifically to coordinate with the power company, added some additional load calculations and submitted them to plan check, with my digital stamp and signature. They also removed my title block that included “Preliminary Drawings for DWP Service Planning” and added their own. Somehow they managed to get my incomplete set of electrical drawings approved by the city and are using them as permitted construction drawings. Needless to say that I am in shock and looking into filing a complaint with the P.E. board.

If anyone is remotely familiar with a situation like this and has some advice it would be appreciated.

-J

That's not fraudlent engineering, it's just fraudulent.

But we used to get drive enquiries from a major player with attached "typical" electrical schematic. Except that they were our schematics minus the title block. Flattering in a way but not exactly honest.

 

[mivey]

I have had drawings and code pilfered many times. Drawings were from reduced quality prints or bitmaps supplied to clients. Code pilfered by co-workers and claimed as their own (you try to help someone...).

Have never had my PE stamp missued as in the OPs case but would nail a hide to the wall if it did happen. That is straight out criminal and needs to be dealt with.

 

[retirede]

I'm not convinced a crime was committed

I'm not a lawyer, but it seems to me that making any modification to the drawings while leaving someone else's seal intact would constitute fraud.

 

[Ingenieur]

I'm not a lawyer, but it seems to me that making any modification to the drawings while leaving someone else's seal intact would constitute fraud.

was he informed in writing not to do so? we don't know what restrictions were imposed (although copy write is assumed even without notice)
did he steal the work? no it was given to him by the person who produced it
did he claim the work as his own? no, he left the seal on it
the police and DA would be involved, not the board

that is administrative, not criminal
and would be civil in nature, not criminal
imo

 

[gadfly56]

was he informed in writing not to do so? we don't know what restrictions were imposed (although copy write is assumed even without notice)
did he steal the work? no it was given to him by the person who produced it
did he claim the work as his own? no, he left the seal on it
the police and DA would be involved, not the board

that is administrative, not criminal
and would be civil in nature, not criminal
imo

Not in NY.

Education Law Article 145, Professional Engineering, Land Surveying and Professional Geology, section 7209:

2a. To all plans, specifications, plats and reports to which the seal of a professional engineer or land surveyor has been applied, there shall also be applied a stamp with appropriate wording warning that it is a violation of this article for any person, unless he or she is acting under the direction of a licensed professional engineer or land surveyor, to alter an item in any way. If an item bearing the seal of an engineer or land surveyor is altered, the altering engineer or land surveyor shall affix to the item his or her seal and the notation "altered by" followed by his or her signature and the date of such alteration, and a specific description of the alteration.

 

[Ingenieur]

Not in NY.

Education Law Article 145, Professional Engineering, Land Surveying and Professional Geology, section 7209:

2a. To all plans, specifications, plats and reports to which the seal of a professional engineer or land surveyor has been applied, there shall also be applied a stamp with appropriate wording warning that it is a violation of this article for any person, unless he or she is acting under the direction of a licensed professional engineer or land surveyor, to alter an item in any way. If an item bearing the seal of an engineer or land surveyor is altered, the altering engineer or land surveyor shall affix to the item his or her seal and the notation "altered by" followed by his or her signature and the date of such alteration, and a specific description of the alteration.

that is not criminal law

 

[LMAO]

Hello,

I know this is rarely encountered but I would like input from anyone who has come across something like this before or has some good advice to offer. I am a registered electrical P.E. in the state of California. I was contacted by someone looking for engineering services to add a number of meters for EV chargers in a large highrise condominium. Everything was very informal and he mentioned getting me on a retainer of $10K once this project got more involved. He mentioned that there were other highrise buildings in the area that he was in negotiations with as well.

I put together a preliminary set of drawings showing proposed meter locations, existing single line diagrams, load schedule, feeders, etc. The purpose was to get enough information put down on plans to get a meeting with the power company since it required alterations to the main service. A digital picture of my stamp and signature were placed on the drawings sent to the utility service planner. At this point the job dragged on for nearly a year without much progress. I was asked to perform more work at which point I declined, stating that I had not been paid for any of the work I had done to date. It was the last I heard from him.

Yesterday, over two years from the last correspondence, I get a call from someone asking about a job I engineered. Not recognizing the address I had him forward me the plans so I could review. Someone had taken my original preliminary drawings, meant specifically to coordinate with the power company, added some additional load calculations and submitted them to plan check, with my digital stamp and signature. They also removed my title block that included “Preliminary Drawings for DWP Service Planning” and added their own. Somehow they managed to get my incomplete set of electrical drawings approved by the city and are using them as permitted construction drawings. Needless to say that I am in shock and looking into filing a complaint with the P.E. board.

If anyone is remotely familiar with a situation like this and has some advice it would be appreciated.

-J

LOL, sounds like something out of a corrupt third world country. What the hell...

 

[charlie b]

I'm not a lawyer, but it seems to me that making any modification to the drawings while leaving someone else's seal intact would constitute fraud.

I agree completely. Let me put it this way: When a PE affixes a seal and signature to a drawing, that act constitutes a declaration to the world that, "this work was done by me or under my supervision." If someone else alters the drawing but leaves the PE's seal and signature in place, it causes that declaration to become untrue. Then when that "someone" turns the drawing into an AHJ (such as for an electrical or building permit), they would be knowingly submitting a false statement to a government agency. That sounds like criminal behavior to me.

 

[Ingenieur]

I agree completely. Let me put it this way: When a PE affixes a seal and signature to a drawing, that act constitutes a declaration to the world that, "this work was done by me or under my supervision." If someone else alters the drawing but leaves the PE's seal and signature in place, it causes that declaration to become untrue. Then when that "someone" turns the drawing into an AHJ (such as for an electrical or building permit), they would be knowingly submitting a false statement to a government agency. That sounds like criminal behavior to me.

the law should provide the penalties in the act
either administrative, ie, suspension, revocation, fines, etc.
or criminal: misdemeanor, felony, etc. (the board can't impose these, only the AG, or similar)

I'll look at PA's

 

[Ingenieur]

PA
I don't think he did any of these:
did not steal the seal, it was given to him
did not mislead the board
etc


Section 11. Penalties.
(a) Whoever shall engage in the practice of engineering, the practice
of land surveying or the practice of geology without being
licensed and registered as required by this act, or exempted
therefrom, as provided in this act, or shall present or attempt
to use, as his own, the license or certificate of registration of
another, or shall give any false or forged evidence of any kind
to the board, or to any member thereof, in order to obtain a
license or registration as a professional engineer, professional
land surveyor or professional geologist or a certificate as an
engineer-in-training or surveyor-in-training, or shall use any
expired, suspended or revoked certificate of registration, or shall
otherwise violate the provisions of this act, shall be guilty of a
summary offense and upon conviction thereof for a first offense,
shall be sentenced to pay a fine not exceeding one thousand
dollars, or suffer imprisonment, not exceeding three months, or
both and for a second or subsequent offense shall be guilty of a
felony, and upon conviction thereof, shall be sentenced to pay
a fine of not less than two thousand dollars but not more than
five thousand dollars or to imprisonment for not less than one
year but not more than two years, or both.
(b) In addition to any other civil remedy or criminal penalty
provided for in this act, the board, by a vote of the majority
of the maximum number of the authorized membership of the
board as provided by law, or by a vote of the majority of the
duly qualified and confirmed membership or a minimum of six
members, whichever is greater, may levy a civil penalty of up
to one thousand dollars on any current licensee who violates
any provision of this act or on any person who practices the
profession of an engineer, land surveyor or geologist without
being properly licensed to do so under this act. The board
shall levy this penalty only after affording the accused party
the opportunity for a hearing, as provided in Title 2 of the
Pennsylvania Consolidated Statutes (relating to administrative
law and procedure).

 

[charlie b]

I don't think he did any of these:

I think he did.

did not steal the seal, it was given to him

No. The seal was not given to him. A sealed document was given to him. That did not constitute permission to use the seal in any other way.

did not mislead the board

Yes he did. He misled everyone. He submitted a design that was not performed by the engineer or under the engineer's supervision, and yet the engineer's seal was allowed to remain on the drawing.

 

[gadfly56]

the law should provide the penalties in the act
either administrative, ie, suspension, revocation, fines, etc.
or criminal: misdemeanor, felony, etc. (the board can't impose these, only the AG, or similar)

I'll look at PA's

In NY (and every other jurisdiction I know of) the agency responsible for overseeing the practice of engineering can fine you or pull your license and it's in the enabling statute.

 

[Ingenieur]

I think he did.
No. The seal was not given to him. A sealed document was given to him. That did not constitute permission to use the seal in any other way.
Yes he did. He misled everyone. He submitted a design that was not performed by the engineer or under the engineer's supervision, and yet the engineer's seal was allowed to remain on the drawing.

a jury will decide, not us

not is not clear cut, since there was no agreement

the law says the board, not 'everyone'

he did not sell engineering services, or promote himself as an engineer


if it is so clear cut the OP is crazy for not pursuing it

 

[Ingenieur]

In NY (and every other jurisdiction I know of) the agency responsible for overseeing the practice of engineering can fine you or pull your license and it's in the enabling statute.

I do not disagree, that is administrative
the question did it rise to criminal, ie, prison

 

[Ingenieur]

Whoever shall engage in the practice of engineering, the practice of land surveying or the practice of geology without being licensed and registered as required by this act: he did not do this, he did not 'practice', meaning advertise to sell services

or shall present or attempt to use, as his own, the license or certificate of registration of another: he did not do this, it was given to him, the owner of the seal was aware that it was given to him and to be used for utility and/or other purposes, undefined by an agreement

or shall give any false or forged evidence of any kind to the board, or to any member thereof, in order to obtain a license or registration as a professional engineer, professional land surveyor or professional geologist or a certificate as an engineer-in-training or surveyor-in-training: he did not do this

or shall use any expired, suspended or revoked certificate of registration: he did not do this

or shall otherwise violate the provisions of this act: not sure about the whole act

shall be guilty of a summary offense and upon conviction thereof for a first offense, shall be sentenced to pay a fine not exceeding one thousand dollars, or suffer imprisonment, not exceeding three months, or both and for a second or subsequent offense shall be guilty of a felony, and upon conviction thereof, shall be sentenced to pay
a fine of not less than two thousand dollars but not more than five thousand dollars or to imprisonment for not less than one year but not more than two years, or both.

 

[gadfly56]

Whoever shall engage in the practice of engineering, the practice of land surveying or the practice of geology without being licensed and registered as required by this act: he did not do this, he did not 'practice', meaning advertise to sell services

or shall present or attempt to use, as his own, the license or certificate of registration of another: he did not do this, it was given to him, the owner of the seal was aware that it was given to him and to be used for utility and/or other purposes, undefined by an agreement

or shall give any false or forged evidence of any kind to the board, or to any member thereof, in order to obtain a license or registration as a professional engineer, professional land surveyor or professional geologist or a certificate as an engineer-in-training or surveyor-in-training: he did not do this

or shall use any expired, suspended or revoked certificate of registration: he did not do this

or shall otherwise violate the provisions of this act: not sure about the whole act

shall be guilty of a summary offense and upon conviction thereof for a first offense, shall be sentenced to pay a fine not exceeding one thousand dollars, or suffer imprisonment, not exceeding three months, or both and for a second or subsequent offense shall be guilty of a felony, and upon conviction thereof, shall be sentenced to pay
a fine of not less than two thousand dollars but not more than five thousand dollars or to imprisonment for not less than one year but not more than two years, or both.

The term "practice" encompasses presenting work as to a client or agency. It certainly is not restricted to advertising.

You cannot "give" your seal in the sense that it is available for unrestricted use by a third party. Otherwise it would make a mockery of the whole concept of signing and sealing a document.

And hey, did you notice the prison term you can get for an offense? Is that "law" enough for you?

 

[Ingenieur]

The term "practice" encompasses presenting work as to a client or agency. It certainly is not restricted to advertising.

You cannot "give" your seal in the sense that it is available for unrestricted use by a third party. Otherwise it would make a mockery of the whole concept of signing and sealing a document.

And hey, did you notice the prison term you can get for an offense? Is that "law" enough for you?

he did not commit an offense imo, definitely not one covered by PA under summary criminal offenses
he prepared shop or installation drawings for his own use, not for the use of others, this is allowed, this is not practice and is exempted
sure you can: when you transmit the drawings you give implicit approval for the associated project, he did not cut and paste the seal onto an unrelated project the engineer was NOT involved in

he should not have sealed them imo
a cover letter : for utility coordination use only

not all states have that penalty: I have licenses for 5 states, and afaik only PA has a criminal stipulation

 

[ggunn]

he did not commit an offense imo, definitely not one covered by PA under summary criminal offenses
he prepared shop or installation drawings for his own use, not for the use of others, this is allowed, this is not practice and is exempted
sure you can: when you transmit the drawings you give implicit approval for the associated project, he did not cut and paste the seal onto an unrelated project the engineer was NOT involved in

he should not have sealed them imo
a cover letter : for utility coordination use only

not all states have that penalty: I have licenses for 5 states, and afaik only PA has a criminal stipulation

Any document that carries my seal has my reputation and my livelihood riding on it, and any alteration of a document that carries my seal that occurs after it has left my hands constitutes a fraudulent and unauthorized use of my seal. I would never "give" my seal to someone else for their use, and any document I release with my seal affixed does not constitute anything remotely like that. The nature of the document is irrelevant.

There is absolutely no difference between someone cutting and pasting my seal onto a new document and someone altering the information contained in a document I have sealed. If it is different at all it is totally different, and it's not what I sealed.