Fuel Pump Estops

[steve66]

True I just verified in the 2021 NFPA 30A don is correct. The e-stop cannot be with in 20', the 2014 NEC used to say just that also.
The thing that confused me is they actualy took that wording out of the 2014 NEC, so I thought the intent was to get them closer.

I was looking at that too, and I tend to agree - NFPA 30A sounds more like none of the estops can be within 20'.

So here is the new question. NPFA 30A requires one Estop readily accessible to the patrons, and another Estop readily accessible to each group of dispensing devices.

How are those different?

Edit: If the patron is at the pump, by the definition, an estop readily accessible to the pumps is accessible to the patron, and vice versa.

Can I just install 2 Estops side by side? If not, how far apart do the have to be? Does one have to be on the north side, and the other on the opposite side of the pumps?

 

[petersonra]

I was looking at that too, and I tend to agree - NFPA 30A sounds more like none of the estops can be within 20'.

So here is the new question. NPFA 30A requires one Estop readily accessible to the patrons, and another Estop readily accessible to each group of dispensing devices.

How are those different?

Edit: If the patron is at the pump, by the definition, an estop readily accessible to the pumps is accessible to the patron, and vice versa.

Can I just install 2 Estops side by side? If not, how far apart do the have to be? Does one have to be on the north side, and the other on the opposite side of the pumps?

Does it actually say that the estop that is readily accessible to patrons has to be different than the one that is readily accessible to the group of dispensing devices?

 

[jim dungar]

I was looking at that too, and I tend to agree - NFPA 30A sounds more like none of the estops can be within 20'.

So here is the new question. NPFA 30A requires one Estop readily accessible to the patrons, and another Estop readily accessible to each group of dispensing devices.

How are those different?

Edit: If the patron is at the pump, by the definition, an estop readily accessible to the pumps is accessible to the patron, and vice versa.

Can I just install 2 Estops side by side? If not, how far apart do the have to be? Does one have to be on the north side, and the other on the opposite side of the pumps?

I took it to mean one stop near each pump and a second button more than 20' away that can shut down a group of pumps. Think one for the immediate patron and one outside of the fire zone for a one to use.

 

[Barbqranch]

I know this will be inspected by a Fire Marshall and I don't want to get caught having to have things rewired to get their approval.

So call the Fire Marshall and get his word.

 

[steve66]

Does it actually say that the estop that is readily accessible to patrons has to be different than the one that is readily accessible to the group of dispensing devices?

Here is the NEC version:

At unattended motor fuel dispensing facilities, the devices or disconnects shall be readily accessible to patrons and at least one additional device or disconnect shall be readily accessible to each group of dispensing devices on an individual island.

 

[steve66]

I took it to mean one stop near each pump and a second button more than 20' away that can shut down a group of pumps. Think one for the immediate patron and one outside of the fire zone for a one to use.

That was my first impression, and that would make sense. But its not how NFPA 30A reads.

So call the Fire Marshall and get his word.

Yes, I do plan on doing that. May also have to check out some unattended stations and see where their estops are.

 

[gadfly56]

That was my first impression, and that would make sense. But its not how NFPA 30A reads.


Yes, I do plan on doing that. May also have to check out some unattended stations and see where their estops are.

If someone else has already done the hard work, don't reinvent the wheel.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Don;

I think it says one emergency shutoff must be more than 20' away, so someone can reach it if there is a fire at the pumps.

But I don't think the same requirement applies to the second Estop button. In fact, I think it has to be close to the pumps. Why else would they say "readily accessible to each group of dispensing devices on an individual island."

But the more I read 514.11, the more it looks like it just contradicts itself.

I know this will be inspected by a Fire Marshall and I don't want to get caught having to have things rewired to get their approval.

Readily accessible to each group is only there for those cases where you can not have a single e-stop that would be within 100' from all of the groups. Readily accessible to each group does not mean at the group of dispensers. There is no distance related to readily accessible like there is for "within sight". The intent is to get the person away from the fire emergency to push the stop button, not have the person run into the fire emergency to push the stop button.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Right but the next closest E-stop location at some stations could be well over 200' of parking lot and other islands. I dont see anything in the NEC that prohibits the emergency shutoff from being within 20' at the end of the island.

Having to cross a lane of traffic might not be considered Readily Accessible

The governing rule is not in the NEC. It is in NFPA 30A which has total purview over fuel dispensing facilities. Crossing traffic lanes at the gas station does not have anything to do with readily accessible.

 

[tortuga]

Now we just need an e-stop for the prices.

 

[steve66]

Readily accessible to each group is only there for those cases where you can not have a single e-stop that would be within 100' from all of the groups. Readily accessible to each group does not mean at the group of dispensers. There is no distance related to readily accessible like there is for "within sight". The intent is to get the person away from the fire emergency to push the stop button, not have the person run into the fire emergency to push the stop button.

OK, but it says very specifically "at least one additional device or disconnect.."

I pulled out the 2015 handbook, and it's commentary states that "Unattended facilities might need additional disconnects because of the decreased level of monitoring of the dispensing activities at such facilities."

I'm not sure what to believe - the text or the commentary. They seem to say different things.

 

[tortuga]

Just put e-stops on opposite sides of the parking lot less than 100' from the pumps.
At a cardlock unattended fueling place, You typically have a group of diesel pumps way on one side for large tractor trailer trucks, a group of gas pumps, then a propane pump and a LNG pump, possibly an AG diesel pump so I would imagine its near impossible to be less than 100' away but more than 20' from all those pumps.

 

[steve66]

So call the Fire Marshall and get his word.

Turns out the Fire Marshall has 120 pages of their own rules.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

OK, but it says very specifically "at least one additional device or disconnect.."

I pulled out the 2015 handbook, and it's commentary states that "Unattended facilities might need additional disconnects because of the decreased level of monitoring of the dispensing activities at such facilities."

I'm not sure what to believe - the text or the commentary. They seem to say different things.

I agree with the handbook and read the requirement as requiring an additional device, only where the first device is not readily accessible from the island or the first device is over 100' from the island.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Turns out the Fire Marshall has 120 pages of their own rules.

Interesting that one of those requirements is that the emergency stop for unattended facilities automatically notifies the local fire department. I know we have a number of locations that are functional as unattended facilities after hours that do not have any type of automatic notification to the fire department. Maybe they are not supposed to be able to supply gas when the station is "closed", but I know from experience that at least two in my down will let you use a credit card to get gas when the station is "closed".

 

[steve66]

Interesting that one of those requirements is that the emergency stop for unattended facilities automatically notifies the local fire department. I know we have a number of locations that are functional as unattended facilities after hours that do not have any type of automatic notification to the fire department. Maybe they are not supposed to be able to supply gas when the station is "closed", but I know from experience that at least two in my down will let you use a credit card to get gas when the station is "closed".

That is an requirement (in Illinois) that I hadn't seen before. Edit: Many of the rules seem to be copied or drafted from NFPA 30A, but this one is seems a little more unique.

But it doesn't apply to private fueling for fleet vehicles. It only applies where pubic access to fueling is allowed.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

That is an requirement (in Illinois) that I hadn't seen before. Edit: Many of the rules seem to be copied or drafted from NFPA 30A, but this one is seems a little more unique.

But it doesn't apply to private fueling for fleet vehicles. It only applies where pubic access to fueling is allowed.

yes, I also have not seen that before.

 

[mikem28270]

I recently designed a retrofit of an existing gas/diesel storage/dispensing facility. Demo'd existing E-stop and controls. I added a new dedicated 60a panel with a shunt trip MCB and switched neutral to power new E-stop and new control circuits. Killed all the birds (power, control, neutral) with one stone (new panel). Seemed like a good idea. Anyone else do something like this? Thoughts?

 

[hillbilly1]

I recently designed a retrofit of an existing gas/diesel storage/dispensing facility. Demo'd existing E-stop and controls. I added a new dedicated 60a panel with a shunt trip MCB and switched neutral to power new E-stop and new control circuits. Killed all the birds (power, control, neutral) with one stone (new panel). Seemed like a good idea. Anyone else do something like this? Thoughts?

Murphy Express uses a latching contactor that feeds a small panel, with a reset button in the kiosk.

 

[steve66]

Well it looks like the OSFM is going to require an Estop near the pumps - within 20'. And when they say you can't fight City Hall, it applies 10 times over to the State of Illinois.

I kept thinking activation of an Estop also had to remove power from the Estop button, since its near the pumps. I finally came up with a schematic that would actually disconnect both the hot and neutral wires from the Estop button after the button was pressed.

Actually, it was harder to find a way to reset the entire shutoff, since I ran into this Catch 22 situation: The contactor would not energize without the Estop button energized, and the Estop button wouldn't be energized until contactor was energized.

Anyhow, It looks like that was all wasted effort, because even though the Estop button may be fairly close to the pumps, as long as its 18" above ground, and 18" away from the pumps, its not actually in the hazardous area. Therefore power to the Estop button can remain connected.