Garage sub panel fire blocking

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JMWElectric

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Martinez CA
I have heard recently that you no longer have to "build" out a newly installed sub panel when it is located in a garage wall that is adjacent to dwelling is this true?

I am located in california


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JMWElectric said:
I have heard recently that you no longer have to "build" out a newly installed sub panel when it is located in a garage wall that is adjacent to dwelling is this true?

I am located in california


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don't know who told you so. If the wall is a fire rated then you need to treat as such. Generally a wall separating a garage to a dwelling is a rated wall of sorts. So you can't just place a 14 1/2 " x 30 " panel there.
 
Sierrasparky said:
don't know who told you so. If the wall is a fire rated then you need to treat as such. Generally a wall separating a garage to a dwelling is a rated wall of sorts. So you can't just place a 14 1/2 " x 30 " panel there.
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Also, if you have stringent energy codes, you need the space for insulation. Hence, the "build out"
 
I could never figure out what is wrong with surface mounted loadcenters, it is a garage not a living room.

I do understand not wanting exposed NM cables running to it, to some extent, there are ways of dealing with those, but guys that never run pipe except maybe for underground service or for overhead masts seem to think that use of pipe is like learning a foreign language.
 
Many homeowners want a pretty garage with finished floors, good lighting, pristine storage, and smooth walls. A surface mount loadcenter especially with exposed conduit isn't "pretty".
 
Craigv said:
Many homeowners want a pretty garage with finished floors, good lighting, pristine storage, and smooth walls. A surface mount loadcenter especially with exposed conduit isn't "pretty".
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I agree the garages around here are more pristine than living areas in my house. hahaha
 
Aren't Panels fire rated?? In any case we usually have the walls built out even if it is just in the corner.
 
Craigv said:
Many homeowners want a pretty garage with finished floors, good lighting, pristine storage, and smooth walls. A surface mount loadcenter especially with exposed conduit isn't "pretty".
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For those that are proud of their pipe bending skills, it likely is pretty.

Here most panels go in basements, I understand some areas of country basements are almost non existent. Most homes still have an area that is kind of the "mechanical area" that has HVAC, major plumbing components such as water heater, water softener, etc. Those often aren't all that "pretty either" why can't electrical panel go in same area, it usually does around here whether it be in basement, garage, or in a "mechanical room" if a one level home. Flush panels are a PITA when future loads get added, especially if in one of those areas that they want to look "pretty".
 
kwired said:
For those that are proud of their pipe bending skills, it likely is pretty.

Here most panels go in basements, I understand some areas of country basements are almost non existent. Most homes still have an area that is kind of the "mechanical area" that has HVAC, major plumbing components such as water heater, water softener, etc. Those often aren't all that "pretty either" why can't electrical panel go in same area, it usually does around here whether it be in basement, garage, or in a "mechanical room" if a one level home. Flush panels are a PITA when future loads get added, especially if in one of those areas that they want to look "pretty".
Click to expand...

Beauty is in the eye of whomever is writing the check. I've never once been paid by a pipe bender ;). While I personally love both an "industrial" or "loft" design look, and would be perfectly fine with the looks and future serviceability of surface boxes and especially well-done piping, I fully understand that many homeowners find everything I just mentioned an eyesore, even in a garage or finished basement.
 
JMWElectric said:
I have heard recently that you no longer have to "build" out a newly installed sub panel when it is located in a garage wall that is adjacent to dwelling is this true?

I am located in california


Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Sierrasparky said:
don't know who told you so. If the wall is a fire rated then you need to treat as such. Generally a wall separating a garage to a dwelling is a rated wall of sorts. So you can't just place a 14 1/2 " x 30 " panel there.
Click to expand...

JMWElectric said:
None of this is at all helpful to my original questions. But thanks guys.

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All of CA is on the same codes.
A local authority can make it more restrictive but never lesser and must follow a specific procedure in order to make amendments. So if you have seen it recently done that way then it was not caught and corrected , which still does not make it compliant. If the wall penetrated is a fire rated wall then it must be mitigated if a panel is installed in it. There might be some discretion as to how it is mitigated.
 
JMWElectric said:
None of this is at all helpful to my original questions. But thanks guys.

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I empathize with you.
I once had that problem when I opened a big hole in my garage ceiling to install a “punch block” terminals for ethernet and audio cables. Our local AHJ required a fire-rated self-closing door to cover the big hole.

Here's what I found:

https://www.accessdoorsandpanels.com/22-x-36-fire-rated-insulated-access-door-with-flange-cendrex/

It is frustrating when you think you found a place to find solution for a problem and ended up zilch.

I also live in CA, but not all cities have the same requirement. A small city on the outskirts of LA (San Fernando) near Glendale, only requires a one-hour Type X drywall where the back of the panel is mounted. This usually is equivalent to the existing material. And you want to do away with this scheme, right?

The Electrical Inspector was also acting as a peace officer.
So the bottom line is: check with your AHJ.

BTW: Martinez is a nice city. We spent a night in an Airbnb and cost us $475/night. :(
My wife and I were there last week.
 
myspark said:
I empathize with you.
I once had that problem when I opened a big hole in my garage ceiling to install a “punch block” terminals for ethernet and audio cables. Our local AHJ required a fire-rated self-closing door to cover the big hole.

Here's what I found:

https://www.accessdoorsandpanels.com/22-x-36-fire-rated-insulated-access-door-with-flange-cendrex/

It is frustrating when you think you found a place to find solution for a problem and ended up zilch.

I also live in CA, but not all cities have the same requirement. A small city on the outskirts of LA (San Fernando) near Glendale, only requires a one-hour Type X drywall where the back of the panel is mounted. This usually is equivalent to the existing material. And you want to do away with this scheme, right?

The Electrical Inspector was also acting as a peace officer.
So the bottom line is: check with your AHJ.

BTW: Martinez is a nice city. We spent a night in an Airbnb and cost us $475/night. :(
My wife and I were there last week.
Click to expand...
Next time let me know when you come to town, I have a spare bedroom you can use for free.

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This is really a building code issue. My statement about a panel being fire rated may be the reason why it is allowed, IDK. I had heard, in the past that the fire rating of the wall was why you could not install a panel there so I am wondering if that has changed.
 
UBC 709.9 used to apply. Now, depending upon where you had read it, nothing at all is mentioned about panels, the installation of a panel is up to the AHJ to decide, or panels were not allowed. Yipeee....

It seems at at least that's all gone by the wayside with IRC. But I haven't a copy, so...:?
 
Dennis Alwon said:
This is really a building code issue. My statement about a panel being fire rated may be the reason why it is allowed, IDK. I had heard, in the past that the fire rating of the wall was why you could not install a panel there so I am wondering if that has changed.
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I doubt a common enclosure would have a fire rating, as there are holes drilled in it, any NM connectors would allow air and gases through, and plastic covered knockouts would be useless in seconds. The doors can't count, as many use plastic "hinges".:)
 
Craigv said:
UBC 709.9 used to apply. Now, depending upon where you had read it, nothing at all is mentioned about panels, the installation of a panel is up to the AHJ to decide, or panels were not allowed. Yipeee....

It seems at at least that's all gone by the wayside with IRC. But I haven't a copy, so...:?
Click to expand...

The ICC provides free public access to the IRC and other codes just like the NFPA with the NEC and such.
 
myspark said:
I empathize with you.
I once had that problem when I opened a big hole in my garage ceiling to install a “punch block” terminals for ethernet and audio cables. Our local AHJ required a fire-rated self-closing door to cover the big hole.

Here's what I found:

https://www.accessdoorsandpanels.com/22-x-36-fire-rated-insulated-access-door-with-flange-cendrex/

It is frustrating when you think you found a place to find solution for a problem and ended up zilch.

I also live in CA, but not all cities have the same requirement. A small city on the outskirts of LA (San Fernando) near Glendale, only requires a one-hour Type X drywall where the back of the panel is mounted. This usually is equivalent to the existing material. And you want to do away with this scheme, right?

The Electrical Inspector was also acting as a peace officer.
So the bottom line is: check with your AHJ.
Click to expand...

Boy this is like being a Parrot or just that no one wants to listen

NEWSFLASH - The entire state of CA uses the same code it is mandatory folks.


A local inspector can make an interpretation but it must conform to the code.
What a local inspector may interpret incorrectly is not the point.
A hole in the drywall the size of a panel is not one that conforms without some sort of mitigation.
You as licensed in the State of CA must build and conform to the code.
Just because you passed inspection does not mean that you passed the code requirements. It only means the inspector did not catch it.
The only thing that could provide an exception is a written exception or interpretation on the city letter and signed.
 
Sierrasparky said:
Boy this is like being a Parrot or just that no one wants to listen

NEWSFLASH - The entire state of CA uses the same code it is mandatory folks.


A local inspector can make an interpretation but it must conform to the code.
What a local inspector may interpret incorrectly is not the point.
A hole in the drywall the size of a panel is not one that conforms without some sort of mitigation.
You as licensed in the State of CA must build and conform to the code.
Just because you passed inspection does not mean that you passed the code requirements. It only means the inspector did not catch it.
The only thing that could provide an exception is a written exception or interpretation on the city letter and signed.
Click to expand...

Get out of your bird cage and do some work where real electricians ply their trade. And don't call me a parrot.
You haven't been anywhere.
For OP:
Thanks for the offer. I might just do it in the future.:)
 
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