Garage Wiring Problem...

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1793

1793

Senior Member
Location
Louisville, Kentucky
Occupation
Inspector
I was asked to look at a job with the following:

Detached Garage with underground feed from House
60A 2pole feed, three wire to 12 circuit panel in Garage
Main breaker backfed in Garage
1/2" CU ground rod with what looks like #8 to grounds in Garage panel
Floating neutrals in Garage panel with Grounds bonded to panel
Walls are finished with OSB on walls and ceiling
Second floor of Garage is partially floored with OSB, down the middle
Can see both ends, in the attic, above panel and over 1st two gang

There is a 12/3 romex in the Garage panel feeding two two gang receptacles. Only one of the Hots, the black, is being used with this circuit, Red caped off.

When this circuit is energized there is current on the GROUNDS and I mean ALL the Grounds. The circuit stays energized.

I'm thinking that there must be a nail, screw or staple in the wire touching the Hot & Ground.of the 3 wire.

From the description, does this sound right?
 
1793 said:
I was asked to look at a job with the following:

Detached Garage with underground feed from House
60A 2pole feed, three wire to 12 circuit panel in Garage
Main breaker backfed in Garage
1/2" CU ground rod with what looks like #8 to grounds in Garage panel
Floating neutrals in Garage panel with Grounds bonded to panel
Walls are finished with OSB on walls and ceiling
Second floor of Garage is partially floored with OSB, down the middle
Can see both ends, in the attic, above panel and over 1st two gang

There is a 12/3 romex in the Garage panel feeding two two gang receptacles. Only one of the Hots, the black, is being used with this circuit, Red caped off.

When this circuit is energized there is current on the GROUNDS and I mean ALL the Grounds. The circuit stays energized.

I'm thinking that there must be a nail, screw or staple in the wire touching the Hot & Ground.of the 3 wire.

From the description, does this sound right?
Click to expand...

Something along that line of thinking. If I read your information correctly you have 120/240 feeder 3 wire no EGC, and no bonding jumper in panel. Put in a bonding jumper or an EGC from the source and I would bet you trip the breaker.
 
Correct,

-- There is no EGC with the feeds. One should have been and should be installed.

-- Installing a bonding jumper I feel is not an option since there are other metal connections back to the house.

-- No GFI receptacles or breakers.

This Garage is at least 3 years old and is as was when built.

A young man was electrocuted this past Wednesday while trying to install a Driven Ground at the Garage that he FELT was needed. This man was not an Electrician and from what I know after he drove a 5/8" CU rod about 4 feet deep and installed a #14 bare wire to the grounding bar in the Garage panel when he went to connect the #14 to the Ground Rod he was killed.
 
Obviously the only way to fix this is to install a 4 wire feeder. Just out of curiosity what is the wiring method of the feeder? PVC?
 
hardworkingstiff said:
You are saying you have a 12/3 feeding the garage and the 12/3 does not have a ground?
Click to expand...

No, No.

There is a 12/3 NM being used to supply a 2 gang receptacle(s) in the Garage. There is a problem with the 12/3 NM. I have not yet found the problem but I think there is a "connection" between the "hot" and "Ground" causing the problem.
 
hardworkingstiff said:
If that is the problem, no amount of grounding will fix it.
Click to expand...

I understand that the only way to fix this "connection" or bad cable is to replace the "run". Had this been installed differently in the beginning we would not be having this discussion.

Proper grounding would have prevented a young mans death.
 
hardworkingstiff said:
If that is the problem, no amount of grounding will fix it.
Click to expand...

But if there is effective grounding vs no grounding like he likely has it would at least open the overcurrent device.

1793 said:
I understand that the only way to fix this "connection" or bad cable is to replace the "run". Had this been installed differently in the beginning we would not be having this discussion.

Proper grounding would have prevented a young mans death.
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Someone was electrocuted and there is not a panel of investigators trying to figure out exactly what happened?
 
kwired said:
But if there is effective grounding vs no grounding like he likely has it would at least open the overcurrent device.



Someone was electrocuted and there is not a panel of investigators trying to figure out exactly what happened?
Click to expand...

Not that I'm aware of. Still early on in investigation.
 
kwired said:
But if there is effective grounding vs no grounding like he likely has it would at least open the overcurrent device.
Click to expand...
True
Someone was electrocuted and there is not a panel of investigators trying to figure out exactly what happened?
Click to expand...
Yea, I was thinking the same thing. I also would be disconnecting the power at the breaker.

I don't understand though, if it's PVC for the circuit to the garage, how hard is to pull in a ground? Am I missing something?
 
1793 said:
Not that I'm aware of. Still early on in investigation.
Click to expand...

And you are going to tamper with whatever evidence there is that may have contributed to the electrocution?

The most I would do before any investigation is over is turn off the supply. I would not even try to figure out what went wrong if I was not requested to be a part of the investigation, could disturb something and throw the investigation off.
 
Is it pvc all the way or did they sleeve UF where it is exposed?

A new feed should be pulled to correct PART of the problem.

There is still a definite need to isolate the fault and repair it.

I would think the insurance company and local DA would certainly want some answers here. Therefore I would very thoroughly document EVERYTHING, every last detail. They will want to talk to you sooner or later.
 
kwired said:
And you are going to tamper with whatever evidence there is that may have contributed to the electrocution?

The most I would do before any investigation is over is turn off the supply. I would not even try to figure out what went wrong if I was not requested to be a part of the investigation, could disturb something and throw the investigation off.
Click to expand...

Found the bad circuit, disconnected from breaker no other action yet

WIMaster said:
Is it pvc all the way or did they sleeve UF where it is exposed?

A new feed should be pulled to correct PART of the problem.

There is still a definite need to isolate the fault and repair it.

I would think the insurance company and local DA would certainly want some answers here. Therefore I would very thoroughly document EVERYTHING, every last detail. They will want to talk to you sooner or later.
Click to expand...

PVC from the house to garage
Found faulted circuit, not the actual fault location
Waiting for the notification
 
1793 said:
Found the bad circuit, disconnected from breaker no other action yet



PVC from the house to garage
Found faulted circuit, not the actual fault location
Waiting for the notification
Click to expand...

I read this thread late last night and didn't realize the electrocution took place at the garage you are working on. I just thought since there was one somewhere it got you to thinking grounding needed to be done "here".
In light of now knowing that the tragedy happened where you are working, I believe instead of disconnecting the apparent bad circuit I would disconnect the feeder to the garage, in case there is more than 1 faulted circuit and just plain safer, and then wait for further instructions. That would also make your troubleshooting easier if/when they ask you to proceed.
 
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