GE RR7 Relays / gar

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iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Every time I see one of these lighting control panels I think of gar. So today I snapped some pictures of a removed lighting control panel.


He is a fan of these older reliable relays as am I. I thought he might like to see they are still being used with updated control systems.

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iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
There are older homes in the area with these installed. They look like a rats nest now but still work, for the most part.

Exactly and my understanding is these RR7s where designed in the 50s for the GE 'Touch Plate System' It was a good system, versatile and rock solid compared to today's electronics. At this point many of the systems are screwed up because few understand them and the rats nest looks daunting. :)

I would bet gars knowledge of them comes from those older homes systems.

This site has all kinds of parts and support for these old systems.

http://touchplate.com/system-support-systems-dated-1946-1985/
 

gar

Senior Member
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Occupation
EE
160801-2134 EDT

iwire:

Thanks for the pictures.

I started playing with relays like these around 1958. Some were made with hot-wires as the actuator (not a rock solid design concept), others were steppers (did not provide information at the controlling switch of the switched state), and then Sq-D and GE (both magnetically actuated and mechanically bi-stable).

By 1965 Sq-D was gone from the market as I recall. GE had a model that plugged on to a pair of bus bars. I chose this GE model for my home which just starting construction in Nov 1965. I have about 50 relays in the house, and about 50 breakers. All of the relay switched circuits are #14 copper, and one 15 A QO breaker supplies 3 RR relays. Over the last 50 years I have had a few, possibly 5, RRs fail to remain bi-stable. I consider this to be good reliability, and there is very little voltage drop across the RR compared to a solid-state switch.

I believe the new RRs are probably more reliable than mine because the bus-bar approach has been dropped.

Thanks again iwire for the pictures,

.
 

junkhound

Senior Member
Location
Renton, WA
Occupation
EE, power electronics specialty
Good to see others still have the GE relays. Nothing like having 16 (or unlimited) way switches and central lighting control !

Built out house in 1971. Have over 60 ea RR3 relays and a few hundred switches.

Have had only had 2 RR3 failures (stuck in one position), both were outside where there was possibility of condensation, and both within the last 5 years.

Have had to 'scotchbrite' 10 or so of the switches, as 45 years of oxidation made for a few poor contacts.

Have 3 master control panels, where a single switch can control ALL, all upstairs, all outside, etc. lighting plus rotary selector switch.

The way I worked it (no code prohibitions that I could see, still a class II transformer only power) was to full wave rectify the 24 Vac, charge a few 18,000uF capacitors at each main control panel, and a single 30A momentary contact switch used to drive all relays at the same time for the 'all lights' control - 120 diodes feed individual RR3 relay feeds for each main control switch. Never did think the old GE motor driven switch was worth much, never used one of those.

Individual control maintained with about a thousand or so logic diodes. Having the central control stations could easily interconnect to computer or even ipad control if I ever get ambitious.

Was able to use surplus 52 pair telephone cable for most of the RR3 feed runs.

I did NOT use a central relay panel, each RR3 relay at the controlled fixture or outlet, they snap into the metal box knockouts.

IIRC RR3 relays were abut $3 each back in '71, still close to a half-hours pay then per relay.

edit: note for the young guys about telephone cable and 'free' availability:
back in the 'ma bell' monopoly era, when the ATT guys did a wire run in one of the factory buildings, they literally threw a few hundred feet at a time of pulled 50 pair cable into the nearest trash can. Copper cheap then, ATT had no incentive to save, etc. Recall about the mid 70's as inflation took off ATT started to put the old wire into a bag to recycle. Company electricians would dump a few dozen feet of thhn into trash barrels also, good source of materials for kids just starting out. Have not seen more than a few feet at a time of wire in a trash bbl for a couple of decades.
 
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tkb

Senior Member
Location
MA
Back in the early eighties we used RR7 relays for lighting control using momentary on/off/on switches. We mounted the relays in 4-11/16 boxes above ceilings or electric closets.
 

macmikeman

Senior Member
I put them into the first house I built for myself in my present community. Under the stairs which was next to the Master Bedroom. They were noisy buggers. Otherwise as far as I know the new owners like the system and kept it .
 

gar

Senior Member
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Occupation
EE
160802-2416 EDT

macmikeman:

What kind of noise?

Mine make a small click, and are probably less noisy than a standard toggle switch. These are controlled by a limited DC energy source, and are in gang boxes. Somewhat more energy than necessary to cause a relay change of state.

What is great about this switching technique is all switches are up for ON, down for OFF, easy control of one load from many different switching points, and the ease of creating different logical control functions.

.
 

ActionDave

Chief Moderator
Staff member
Location
Durango, CO, 10 h 20 min from the winged horses.
Occupation
Licensed Electrician
Every time I see one of these lighting control panels I think of gar. So today I snapped some pictures of a removed lighting control panel.


He is a fan of these older reliable relays as am I. I thought he might like to see they are still being used with updated control systems.
Very nice. The only relay I have seen not covered in dust were ones that came out of a box. There is one apartment building with them that I get to work on once in a while. I agree it is a great system that too many folks dismiss because they know nothing about it.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
I ended up back at this panel and took a better picture of the relay label.

My understanding is the RR7 is a replacement for the discontinued RR3
 

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gar

Senior Member
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Occupation
EE
160803-1324 EDT

iwire:

The output contact rating is the same for all relays from RR-3 thru RR-8. Using a June 15, 1963, Catalog 3, as reference for the RR-3 thru RR-6. In a later manual A.I.A. File 31-D-47 for the RR-7.

The low voltage coils changed a small amount between
RR-3 thru RR-6 (DC resistance = 44 ohms, AC impedance at 60 Hz = 57 ohms) (AC current 0.42 A), and the
RR-7 thru RR-8 (DC res = 54 ohms, AC impedance = 85 ohms) (AC current= 0.25 A).

The RR-3 had pigtails for the output contacts while the RR-7 has terminals.The RR-5 plugged on to bus bars. The RR-7 is too wide to fit into the RR-5 gang box.

.
 

Knuckle Dragger

Master Electrician Electrical Contractor 01752
Location
Marlborough, Massachusetts USA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Back in the early eighties we used RR7 relays for lighting control using momentary on/off/on switches. We mounted the relays in 4-11/16 boxes above ceilings or electric closets.
That has been the standard setup from my experience with them.
We replaced a lot of them because people would paint or wall paper the cover plates causing the momentary switch to stick in one position and burn out the relay.

As far as noise it typically made a short lived buzz or click sound under normal circumstances

I have never seen them set up that way (in the attached photos) looks professional and easier to trouble shoot problems with in the system that way.
 

gar

Senior Member
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Occupation
EE
160910-2056 EDT

I have had 50 years of experience with my home entirely controlled with RR relays. Probably about 50 relays. No coil burnouts. Control of the relays should be done with DC and proper current control so that if a wimpy switch gets stuck the coil is not over heated. With DC there is simply a mild click on relay operation.

The logical advantages, easy switch wiring, low power loss within the switch, relative immunity from high voltage spike damage, control switch operation in the up direction always means on, and easy for automated control make the RR a very useful product. I hope GE does not drop the RR. Relay prices are way too high, and with automation should be very much lower.

The RR system is so simple I do not understand why so many electricians seem to be confused by it.

.
 
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