GEC in Meter enclosure

Status
Not open for further replies.
T

Tulsa Electrician

Senior Member
Location
Tulsa
Occupation
Electrician
New so take it easy on me.
I have a two gang meter enclosure provide by utility
The Neutral is bonded to the enclosure factory( bare bare bolted to can)
Over head drop from utility
Residential two family dwelling
Meter can (enclosure) mounted on concrete siding wood structure
One #4 ran on surface of structure from meter can to single ground rod
#4 GEC landed under lug in side can on Neutral bar
No other GEC conductor elsewhere or second rod
*Yes a second rod should be driven at least six feet away from first and new unlicensed GEC ran from meter to driven rods.
Utility and city require GEC to rod at meter
Plastic service water line and pex water line used through out, no 18" of copper at gas water tank
Gas line Bond not installed however required ( bond only per city)

Now it get good!
For the service entrance conductors they used 2-2-2-4 AL, Yes an SER cable
Ran 20' to the first mean of disconnect which is a 24 circuit 100 amp main breaker load center Located in interior hall way of each dwelling
The termination of this 4- wire cable is whats in question
Line phase connection, OK (black and red)
White grounded conductor(neutral) landed on meter can Neutral lug and on neutral lug in load center.
No for that fourth wire of the SER cable
It is landed inside the meter can on a separate lug bolted to the can via drilled 1/4 x 20 hole, bolt and nut to the enclosure Lug is a 90 c rate CU AL lug
By the way no contact paste( anti oxide inhibitor) use on any AL wire

Now it gets really good!
At the load center location this #4 bare Al which is part of the SER cable is landed on the neutral bar via a split connection under two of neutral bar screws
The MBJ ( Main Bonding Jumper) is also installed (green screw through neutral bus bar into enclosure inside this load center which contains an 100 amp main breaker or first means of service disconnect.

So when I came uncorked it was like talking to the sheet rock wall. I was told it passed inspection and to leave it alone.
By the way did I mention the two 1-1/4 inch hole in the bottom of the meter can to which was no effectively closed. Yea just two hole some one could stick there little fingers in.
I should also mention the the cable exiting the meter can through the siding into structure was ran through a 1-1/4 PVC male adapter with lock nut and bushing
I should also mention the #4 bare copper running to the ground rod was loose under the approve ground rod clamp I mean fall out loose

This installation was done in the city of Tulsa OK
Does it end there? Nope!
This two family dwelling (duplex) was rewired with new NM cable though out.
All the grounded conductors were terminated on the neutral bar
Wonder how they planned on hooking up all the AFCI/GFCI breakers required by the city
In one side it had 10-3 g to the dryer recpt. and on the other 10-2 g again I said what and was told do not touch it and to put in a three wire recpt.
This washer dryer combo set right next to the elect ignition gas water tank.
I found several other issues however you see the first and big one the service.
 
Is there a question in all that somewhere or we classify it as a "rant" ?
 
sorry if sounded like a rant.
I wanted to provide as much information for a sound recommendation on the bare ground wire.
As i see it it is not needed and second acts like a parallel neutral which is a violation of code.
I feel the the bare conductor should be removed and leave the MBJ in the load center and use the load center neutral bar for bonding of the gas line.
I looking for code confirmation of this based on the 2014 NEC
 
From your description it sounds like a multitude of problems. If the meter location consists of meter socket only (no service disconnect) the 20' of
interior (assuming interior) cable would be a violation of 230.70. A service disconect that meets that Code Section would need to be installed ahead of the SER and the neutrals and equipment grounds at the interior panel would need to be separated and properly terminated properly.
 
Nitpicking your wording a bit, but there isnt necessarily a problem with a parallel neutral, however the specific problem with that install is some of the provisions of 310.10(H). I would cut off the bare at each end and use the white as the grounded conductor

I am unclear about the "#4 GEC landed under lug in side can" but it seems like that is not needed and the #4 from the meter to the rod is all you need (except a 2nd rod assuming you didnt test the first for 25 ohms, and tightening the acorn).

Gas is bonded by the EGC in the branch circuit likely to energize the piping, but there doesnt seem to be even one inspector in the
United States who knows that. Not sure if you have more strict local code.
 
electrofelon said:
Gas is bonded by the EGC in the branch circuit likely to energize the piping, but there doesnt seem to be even one inspector in the
United States who knows that. Not sure if you have more strict local code.
Click to expand...

There are a few of us :) but that "secret" was muddied by the bodning requirement for CSST gas piping so a lot of inspector are caught by "you didn't need that bond" on yesterdays job but "you do" on today's. A lot of the electricans in my area rode the short bus to work so it's simplier just to let them bond period.
 
augie47 said:
There are a few of us :) but that "secret" was muddied by the bodning requirement for CSST gas piping so a lot of inspector are caught by "you didn't need that bond" on yesterdays job but "you do" on today's. A lot of the electricans in my area rode the short bus to work so it's simplier just to let them bond period.
Click to expand...
Yeah Augie, good point about the CSST - although in those cases, I am saying its the gas contractors responsability then not mine! 😇
 
electrofelon said:
Yeah Augie, good point about the CSST - although in those cases, I am saying its the gas contractors responsability then not mine! 😇
Click to expand...

Agree, but most of my area does not have a mechanical inspector :(
Reminds me too much of who is responsible for assuring HVAC equipment has the correct OCP device. Each trade blames the other.
 
electrofelon said:
Nitpicking your wording a bit, but there isnt necessarily a problem with a parallel neutral, however the specific problem with that install is some of the provisions of 310.10(H). I would cut off the bare at each end and use the white as the grounded conductor

I am unclear about the "#4 GEC landed under lug in side can" but it seems like that is not needed and the #4 from the meter to the rod is all you need (except a 2nd rod assuming you didnt test the first for 25 ohms, and tightening the acorn).

Gas is bonded by the EGC in the branch circuit likely to energize the piping, but there doesnt seem to be even one inspector in the
United States who knows that. Not sure if you have more strict local code.
Click to expand...
His parallel conductors are too small to be paralleled though.
 
Thank you for your responses
I was under the impression that if two wire were connect to the same point the current would be shared based on resistance. Both the white neutral service conductor and bare EGC are connected back to the same point. The bare#4 is under a lug in the bottom of the meter. The white grounded service conductor is on the meter can neutral bar which is bolt to the can solid. In the load center on the Neutral bar both are terminated on the same bar. If I am wrong wonder why my amp clamp pick up a reading of almost half the total current of the line conductor. I applied a load to one line and then measured both the white and the bare almost the same. I used the furnace load only one one line with no load on the other. The bare if being used as an EGC then in fact is in violation and acting in parallel with the grounded service conductor.

Another question I have with this is with the EGC at the meter which is allowed and the first means of disconnect for the service is the load center and the location of the MBJ. Should the MBJ be removed and EGC and grounded/neutral conductors be separated. Then the bare will not carry load with the exception of objectionable. Does the NEC say we shall do what we can to reduce objectionable current on the EGC.

So leave or remove the MBJ (green screw)
Or leave or remove the #4 bare
or a combination of both since the GEC is in the meter enclosure.

I'm looking at as we leave the MBJ in the load center which has the main remove the bare #4 since were allowed to use the service grounder conductor to ground equipment on the service line side. The AHJ does not have an issue with the length of the service conductors inside the house even though code says otherwise.
I do agree the length inside warrants a out side main disconnect adjacent to the meter than 4- wire in and separate grounded and EGC's
On the ground rod issue I was under the impression the NEC says you have to have two source for the GEC and if not available a rod in this case two and tie together requardless of the 25 ohms. please correct if i am wrong.
Thank you
Look forward to your comments.
 
Tulsa Electrician said:
Another question I have with this is with the EGC at the meter which is allowed and the first means of disconnect for the service is the load center and the location of the MBJ. Should the MBJ be removed and EGC and grounded/neutral conductors be separated. Then the bare will not carry load with the exception of objectionable. Does the NEC say we shall do what we can to reduce objectionable current on the EGC.

So leave or remove the MBJ (green screw)
Or leave or remove the #4 bare
or a combination of both since the GEC is in the meter enclosure.

I'm looking at as we leave the MBJ in the load center which has the main remove the bare #4 since were allowed to use the service grounder conductor to ground equipment on the service line side.
Click to expand...

Yes, do the last sentence. BTW, the #4 bare is not an EGC. See the article 100 definition of "grounding conductor, equipment". Technically it is a parallel grounded conductor that violates 310.10(H) because it is too small to parallel, is not terminated the same way, is not the same size, and is does not have the same insulation.


I do agree the length inside warrants a out side main disconnect adjacent to the meter than 4- wire in and separate grounded and EGC's
On the ground rod issue I was under the impression the NEC says you have to have two source for the GEC and if not available a rod in this case two and tie together requardless of the 25 ohms. please correct if i am wrong.
Thank you
Look forward to your comments.
Click to expand...

In a nutshell, all qualifying electrodes that are present must be used. If none are present, one must be added. IF a rod or pipe electrode is installed, it must be supplemented by a second if resistance is not 25 ohms. or less
 
There is no EGC until you are past the service disconnect. Up to the service disconnect you are supposed to bond everything to the grounded service conductor.

To add to what EF said, if you don't want to measure resistance of a rod or pipe electrode (many don't have nor want to purchase equipment to test this) then simply driving second rod is quick and easy way to comply. If the first is less than 25 you never know but it also doesn't hurt anything to have the second rod anyway.
 
Thank you all for your replies.
What is taking place is the GEC being installed at the meter can which is allowed per NEC. Not Commons and some utility do not want it there. In this case they do. When this takes place is the field electricians are not clear what to do after that and do what they have seen and what other tell them.
I have seen over five cases of this in the short time I have done work in Tulsa and get told something different from each installer. Each saying that is how its done in Tulsa OK. So I called AHJ sent them some pics and there are going to get back with me on a answer on just what is the standard for installation. Them seam to be confused as well is why I sent pics for the to see for them selves along with there inspection sticker. I ask here to get a general consensus of what I see as a correct install and the violations per NEC as I know it. I will post up results of the AHJ conclusion for others to read. If there was a way to post pics you would have been as shocked as I was, no pun intended

Again Thank you
 
I don't understand what all the confusion is. NEC is very clear GEC can connect anywhere between the service point and the service equipment. Now get into services with multiple enclosures, it is a little more complicated and many seem to have trouble with this, but essentially you have two choices: connect GEC to a common location, or run taps from the GEC to each enclosure.

Then equipment on the line side of, and including, the service disconnect is bonded to the neutral (directly, or indirectly with a SSBJ).
 
Ravenvalor said:
This may qualify for one of those jobs you decline.
Click to expand...

I have read these post twice and I'm not sure what the OP is there to do. If the service is already installed and approved (by others). I wouldn't bother with it.

What type of permit does the OP have on this job?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top