GEC in Metered Disconnect?

[JasonCo]

I feel like I'm constantly in a war with inspectors wanting different things, it's frustrating. I'm just wondering what the truth is so help me God! In a metered disconnect, I know code wants you to bond neutral to the equipment, but would you send your GEC down to Earth as this point also, or would you do it at your service disconnect? POCO + Inspector doesn't want anything at all going on inside the meter, so that's out of question where I'm at. Just wondering if there is a code that sets things straight for doing this at a metered disconnect instead of at the service disconnect.

I personally feel like the service disconnect is where the GEC should be, along with the start of your EGC. Last inspector I had red tagged me for this, but what the heck? So inspectors don't want it in the meter because it isn't accessible, yet POCO also locks the metered disconnect... This inspector I keep getting holds his chest way too high. I think 250.24 goes into this a bit... The way I read it, it can be in either one?

 

[Buck Parrish]

The meter is the best spot for it but all poco's have their own way of doing it that is not in the NEC. Then inspectors knowing that the poco will not accept it. They'll flag you on it even though by the NEC it can be done either way. I can see how that can be confusing.

Are you by chance on 2020 and using an emergency disconnect? Because that could create more dialogue

 

[texie]

I feel like I'm constantly in a war with inspectors wanting different things, it's frustrating. I'm just wondering what the truth is so help me God! In a metered disconnect, I know code wants you to bond neutral to the equipment, but would you send your GEC down to Earth as this point also, or would you do it at your service disconnect? POCO + Inspector doesn't want anything at all going on inside the meter, so that's out of question where I'm at. Just wondering if there is a code that sets things straight for doing this at a metered disconnect instead of at the service disconnect.

I personally feel like the service disconnect is where the GEC should be, along with the start of your EGC. Last inspector I had red tagged me for this, but what the heck? So inspectors don't want it in the meter because it isn't accessible, yet POCO also locks the metered disconnect... This inspector I keep getting holds his chest way too high. I think 250.24 goes into this a bit... The way I read it, it can be in either one?

I think you have the gist of it. The main bonding jumper must be at the service disconnect per 250.24. The GEC could connect in a number of places but in most jurisdictions they want it in the service disconnect. Anything metallic on the line side of the service disconnect must be bonded per 250.92. This would include a meter disconnect, meter or CT can, raceways, etc. As you mentioned, 250.92 would allow simply bonding the neutral for these items or other methods such as supply side bonding jumpers, grounding bushings, etc.

 

[texie]

I should have mentioned that any inspector that says you can't connect the GEC in the service disconnect is an idiot and should be run off the job. The only exception to this is when you have the rare POCO that requires the GEC to connect within their meter or require a supplemental ground rod connected to their meter can.

 

[jaggedben]

There is no NEC code section that addresses this point with respect to meters. In fact, the NEC has almost nothing to say about meters because they essentially change nothing with regard to safety. Note that the NEC does not require meters, and does not care where they go. You can have an NEC compliant installation with no meter at all. POCOs require meters, not the NEC.

What the code says is that the GEC can be connected to the grounded conductor (almost always what you also call the neutral) at any accessible point between or at the service point and the service disconnecting means. 250.24(A)(1). Any thing beyond that is a local rule or interpretation, in many cases heavily influenced by traditions and the business decisions of the local POCO with respect to where and how they want their meters installed and secured.

 

[electrofelon]

You can have an NEC compliant installation with no meter at all. POCOs require meters, not the NEC.

I'm going to skip the meter on my next service just for the fun of it, see if the inspector notices or cares. Actually, that is kind of an interesting academic question: whether the laws in a given area grant the inspector authority to enforce POCO requirements. I could see some areas not stating it.

 

[retirede]

I'm going to skip the meter on my next service just for the fun of it, see if the inspector notices or cares. Actually, that is kind of an interesting academic question: whether the laws in a given area grant the inspector authority to enforce POCO requirements. I could see some areas not stating it.

The inspector may not care, but I doubt you’ll get the POCO to connect!

 

[don_resqcapt19]

I'm going to skip the meter on my next service just for the fun of it, see if the inspector notices or cares. Actually, that is kind of an interesting academic question: whether the laws in a given area grant the inspector authority to enforce POCO requirements. I could see some areas not stating it.

While it is very unlikely that the local inspector has any legal authority to inspect to the utility requirements, doing so is a benefit to the installer.

 

[jaggedben]

... Actually, that is kind of an interesting academic question: whether the laws in a given area grant the inspector authority to enforce POCO requirements. I could see some areas not stating it.

To my knowledge they generally don't, except in the case where the POCO is owned by the AHJ (local public power). My understanding is that the POCOs right to enforce their rules generally stems from having their rulebook approved by a state public utilities commission. So, separate track from whoever develops or enforces the building code.

 

[jaggedben]

While it is very unlikely that the local inspector has any legal authority to inspect to the utility requirements, doing so is a benefit to the installer.

I don't really agree. It's nice when they give you a heads up, but not a correction notice. And when the work doesn't change the service then I count upon the AHJ not enforcing new POCO rules on old installations.

 

[JasonCo]

Thank you to all the nice responses! Had to work an hour and a half away from home today, a 2-3 week job I'm just starting. Shot the underground lateral today, just now getting home. Well thankfully this next job is all 120/240 so I don't have to worry about metered disconnects. I feel lucky because I'm installing 9 services on the back of a shopping center. I'd lose my mind if I had metered disconnects with the same inspector.

Just one last question if you don't mind! Just as an example, if I had a service lateral come up into a tap box/Trough. Then the service entrance conductors branch off into 9 separate meters/service disconnects. It is fine to shoot my grounding electrode down at the Trough/gutter correct? This will be the GEC for my 9 meters, all placed above and within the vicinity of this Tap box/gutter. Well sort of, I know there's a grouping rule, but that's a whole different discussion haha.

I have a feeling I'll be getting the same inspector, just want to make sure this is code compliant. I wish I had my codebook with me, lent it out to an apprentice today

 

[LarryFine]

Just as an example, if I had a service lateral come up into a tap box/Trough. Then the service entrance conductors branch off into 9 separate meters/service disconnects. It is fine to shoot my grounding electrode down at the Trough/gutter correct? This will be the GEC for my 9 meters, all placed above and within the vicinity of this Tap box/gutter. Well sort of, I know there's a grouping rule, but that's a whole different discussion haha.

Correctamundo.

 

[Carultch]

The meter is the best spot for it but all poco's have their own way of doing it that is not in the NEC. Then inspectors knowing that the poco will not accept it. They'll flag you on it even though by the NEC it can be done either way. I can see how that can be confusing.

IMO, the transformer is the best spot for it, as that is where the voltage system originates. However, due to the fact that most transformers that feed a service are utility-owned, not part of the same structure as the premises wiring, and commonly feed several neighboring properties, it is not practical to have it in a typical service transformer, that the customer doesn't control. I see it as a compromise between physical principles and practicality to standardize on having it be in the service disconnect. Given a customer-owned transformer and SDS disconnect where we have the choice of where to do this, I recommend the N-G bond and GEC to be in the transformer, as that is the origin of the separately-derived system.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

IMO, the transformer is the best spot for it, as that is where the voltage system originates. However, due to the fact that most transformers that feed a service are utility-owned, not part of the same structure as the premises wiring, and commonly feed several neighboring properties, it is not practical to have it in a typical service transformer, that the customer doesn't control. I see it as a compromise between physical principles and practicality to standardize on having it be in the service disconnect. Given a customer-owned transformer and SDS disconnect where we have the choice of where to do this, I recommend the N-G bond and GEC to be in the transformer, as that is the origin of the separately-derived system.

The utility provides a connection to a grounding electrode at their transformer for all grounded systems.

 

[roger]

POCO + Inspector doesn't want anything at all going on inside the meter, so that's out of question where I'm at. Just wondering if there is a code that sets things straight for doing this at a metered disconnect instead of at the service disconnect.

So if they don't want anything going on in the meter how do they want us to hook up the service conductors?

 

[texie]

The utility provides a connection to a grounding electrode at their transformer for all grounded systems.

Agreed. The NESC provides for this.

 

[tom baker]

As pointed out by JaggedBen, the GEC can be at the service drop. If you are protecting form lightning this location keeps the lightning energy from going thru the meter, service and then the GEC, so IMO at the service drop has an advantage.
We often make the connection in the service as
1. Easiest location to do so
2. No terminal for connection in meter socket,
3. Some AHJs won't allow as its not accessible when the meter is sealed (we can't in WA)
Making the connection at the service drop is something the AHJ does normally see, can cause confusion.

 

[roger]

2. No terminal for connection in meter socket,

Every meter socket I have used has a factory bonded terminal for the GEC

3. Some AHJs won't allow as its not accessible when the meter is sealed (we can't in WA)

First of all it is accessible even if sealed and if it isn't nobody has answered the question as to why the other conductors are allowed to be inaccessible.

Roger

 

[jap]

As pointed out by JaggedBen, the GEC can be at the service drop. If you are protecting form lightning this location keeps the lightning energy from going thru the meter, service and then the GEC, so IMO at the service drop has an advantage.
We often make the connection in the service as
1. Easiest location to do so
2. No terminal for connection in meter socket,
3. Some AHJs won't allow as its not accessible when the meter is sealed (we can't in WA)
Making the connection at the service drop is something the AHJ does normally see, can cause confusion. View attachment 2556616

That riser containing the GEC through the weatherhead certainly looks like EMT,,, with a single grounding conductor in it,,,, which I doubt is bonded at the ground level,,, which is actually acting as a "choke" in my opinion.

But maybe not.

JAP>

 

[JasonCo]

Can I bring up one more thing that makes no sense, as far as inspectors and POCO goes. Where I'm at, my local inspectors (I'm pretty sure POCO doesn't like it either) hate it when you bond the neutral inside the meter. They've asked me multiple times when I'm getting inspections if I bonded it or not inside the meter can... Doesn't this go against code... 250.80 clearly states that all metal raceways and enclosures for service conductors and equipment must be bonded to the neutral. It's clear as day, or am I somehow reading this incorrectly? So any enclosure I have from service point to service disconnect must have the neutral bonded to the metal housing.