Generator and ATS install issues

[mark32]

An acquaintance ordered and received a 14kw (Generac) generator and asked me to give him a hand since he knew I had installed the same one earlier this year. The generator in question has a short whip coming off it with a junction box at the end of it, which mounts to the house in which the FMC whip from the ATS hooks into. One of the problems is there are two a/c units sitting in the chosen location prohibiting proper distance to be achieved for the generator's whip to reach the house. The other issue is the panel, where the ATS needs to be, is on the other side of the house, no way the ATS's whip will make it that far. (Not to mentioned that level is entirely finished and in addition to that the only place to put the ATS has about five timers and an alarm box mounted there, all of which would have to be moved somewhere) If the equipment is installed in the locations that he and the customer chose (Main issue is the generator's location which the customer chose so as not to be an eyesore on the service side of the house, she even managed to have the meter installed inside) the gen's whip would have to be replaced and the ATS's whip would have to be lengthened by splicing somewhere in the middle as there are connectors on the end of both whips that plug into each other in the jbox. I want to help this guy out but there are too many obstacles not to mention cutting/replacing those whips will likely void any warranties. What do you think?

 

[laketime]

Take the whips off and rewire the generator with the right sized conduit and wire. I have used the prewired j-box, cut off the quick connectors and spliced the controls in the box(or you can take them out of the unit entirely and wire directly into the gen). This does not violate the warranty. If the distance from the gen to the ATS is further than 30' Generac suggest separate conduits for the control and gen feed.

 

[ceb58]

You can do as Laketime said but be aware that junction box is just that a junction box. A disconnect will need to be installed per 225.32 for the generator feeders.

 

[Buck Parrish]

Agreed- Or you could bring the whip into a disco near the generator then go to the house panel.
And j-box the controll wiring

Ceb beat me to it about the disconnect
Do the wires that keep the battery charged need a disconnect at the generator on the side of the house , too?

 

[mark32]

You can do as Laketime said but be aware that junction box is just that a junction box. A disconnect will need to be installed per 225.32 for the generator feeders.

Hello, there is a breaker in the generator itself. On the last install we just mounted the jbox and that's all, the inspector passed it no problem. The ATS's whip plugs directly into the generator's whip inside the jbox, there's nowhere to really install a disconnect.

 

[mark32]

Take the whips off and rewire the generator with the right sized conduit and wire. I have used the prewired j-box, cut off the quick connectors and spliced the controls in the box(or you can take them out of the unit entirely and wire directly into the gen). This does not violate the warranty. If the distance from the gen to the ATS is further than 30' Generac suggest separate conduits for the control and gen feed.

Thanks for the tips!!

 

[augie47]

Hello, there is a breaker in the generator itself. On the last install we just mounted the jbox and that's all, the inspector passed it no problem. The ATS's whip plugs directly into the generator's whip inside the jbox, there's nowhere to really install a disconnect.

Be hopeful you get the same inspector . Unless you can meet 702.11 (and most generators don't), you will need a disconenct per 225.30 for most inspections

 

[ceb58]

Hello, there is a breaker in the generator itself. On the last install we just mounted the jbox and that's all, the inspector passed it no problem. The ATS's whip plugs directly into the generator's whip inside the jbox, there's nowhere to really install a disconnect.

Hello your self:grin: I see you are from NJ and for the life of me I cannot understand this. After having a heated discussion on another forum about gen. installs it seems for what ever reason the inspectors in NJ are not enforcing 225.32,225.36 445.18 and 702.11.
And by the way, there have been units trashed because what you think is a breaker
in the unit is not a breaker. Some of the smaller units come with what looks like a breaker and is marked with an amp rating but it is like some prepackaged A/C disconnects it will state on the side of the disco "dose not provide over-current protection". So without a fusible disco you may not have any over-current protection on the gen. or the feeders.

Do the wires that keep the battery charged need a disconnect at the generator on the side of the house , too?

That is a good question. The n1,n2 wires are the 240v sensing wires while the t1 is 120v for the battery charger. Now the gen can be turned off so it will not start and the utility feed to the ATS can be disconnected by the breaker feeding the ATS thus shutting down all power to the gen.

Be hopeful you get the same inspector . Unless you can meet 702.11 (and most generators don't), you will need a disconenct per 225.30 for most inspections

That is why I said I cannot see why the inspectors are not enforcing the code. One installer from NJ said it was a code amendment. But after looking over code amendments for NJ I found nothing to back that up.

 

[augie47]

Certainly seems like a liability NJ would not wabnt to risk.
Hopefully we will have a N.J. inspector chime in.

 

[mark32]

Hello your self:grin: I see you are from NJ and for the life of me I cannot understand this. After having a heated discussion on another forum about gen. installs it seems for what ever reason the inspectors in NJ are not enforcing 225.32,225.36 445.18 and 702.11.
And by the way, there have been units trashed because what you think is a breaker
in the unit is not a breaker. Some of the smaller units come with what looks like a breaker and is marked with an amp rating but it is like some prepackaged A/C disconnects it will state on the side of the disco "dose not provide over-current protection". So without a fusible disco you may not have any over-current protection on the gen. or the feeders.



That is a good question. The n1,n2 wires are the 240v sensing wires while the t1 is 120v for the battery charger. Now the gen can be turned off so it will not start and the utility feed to the ATS can be disconnected by the breaker feeding the ATS thus shutting down all power to the gen.



That is why I said I cannot see why the inspectors are not enforcing the code. One installer from NJ said it was a code amendment. But after looking over code amendments for NJ I found nothing to back that up.

Thank you ceb58 for your time. I have no problem installing a disconnect w/ocp, it just seems odd that the manufacturer put this package together with no provision for such a disconnect. One would have to install their jbox, cut the ATS's whip so you could go from the jbox to a disconnect then to the transfer sw. Aside from all that how does this sound. Run non metallic liquid tight from generator underground to the house and up to a disconnect, use SER from disc to ATS along with 14/3 nm for the control wires. (How many control wires are there? I haven't looked at it yet) In the above you entertained the thought of using a disc for the control wires but I can decide if you are recommending one or not.

 

[augie47]

side note: Mark, Does the ATS have a breaker for the generator circuit ?

 

[ceb58]

side note: Mark, Does the ATS have a breaker for the generator circuit ?

I will jump in on this and if it is incorrect Mark can correct it. The ones that I have installed like Mark's description do not have breakers for the gen. They usually are 12,14 or 16 circuit ATS. You feed utility from the main panel on a 70amp breaker. The gen. feeders come in through the whip with the control wires also installed. The junction box is mounted and the wires from the whip and the wires to the gen. are joined in the J-box. Usually you mount the ATS close to the main panel and bring the branch circuit wiring whip into the main panel. Then you select the loads you want on the gen. and join them in the main panel.

 

[augie47]

How do you satisfy 225.31, 32

 

[ceb58]

Thank you ceb58 for your time. I have no problem installing a disconnect w/ocp, it just seems odd that the manufacturer put this package together with no provision for such a disconnect. One would have to install their jbox, cut the ATS's whip so you could go from the jbox to a disconnect then to the transfer sw. Aside from all that how does this sound. Run non metallic liquid tight from generator underground to the house and up to a disconnect, use SER from disc to ATS along with 14/3 nm for the control wires. (How many control wires are there? I haven't looked at it yet) In the above you entertained the thought of using a disc for the control wires but I can decide if you are recommending one or not.

Mark, it sound good. You need to look in the whip from the ATS to the gen. There may be 3 control wires. N1,N2 should be the 240v sensing wires and the other should be T1. This is for 120v for the battery charger. Since they have gone to the nexus controller I THINK you only need the one T1 wire for 120v. It looks as if they are picking up the neutral in the gen. its self from the feeder neutral connection.
As far as a disconnect for these control wires I dont know. Have never seen it requried for those wires just the feeders.

 

[mkgrady]

I don't get it. The manufacturer provides a whip that goes from the gen to the outside wall of the house. This whip terminates with a JB. They also provide a whip that goes from the ats to the outside JB. The instructions say to connect each whip together at the outside JB. They even have special terminals to connect the control wires together.

I think what some of you are saying is that if you do not add a service rated disconnect with ocp outside between the gen and the ats then it is a code violation. If it is a violation why do the instructions not address this? If the outside JB is meant to join these two factory provided whips together then isn't it a code violation to install the components differently that the instructions require?

 

[ceb58]

I will jump in on this and if it is incorrect Mark can correct it. The ones that I have installed like Mark's description do not have breakers for the gen. They usually are 12,14 or 16 circuit ATS. You feed utility from the main panel on a 70amp breaker. The gen. feeders come in through the whip with the control wires also installed. The junction box is mounted and the wires from the whip and the wires to the gen. are joined in the J-box. Usually you mount the ATS close to the main panel and bring the branch circuit wiring whip into the main panel. Then you select the loads you want on the gen. and join them in the main panel.

How do you satisfy 225.31, 32

That is my point. The above is a gist of Generac's install instructions. You have no problem meeting 225.31 & 32 on the utility side since it is fed from a breaker in the main panel. Usually the ATS is mounted next to the main panel due to the 2ft branch circuit whip that is provided.
Where the problem lies is the generator feeders. You are supplied a 30' whip to run from the ATS to a junction box where the feeders from the gen. are connected.
This J-box doesn't in any way meets the requirements of 225.31 or 32.
Now some will say that the disco. on the gen. will satisfy this requirement. It doesn't. It doesn't comply with 445.18 or 702.11 so it cannot comply with 225.31 or 32

As Mark stated earlier he install one and the inspectors passed it no problem, I have talked with others from NJ and they state the same. Never questioned about it. That is what has me wondering as to why they are not.

On a personal note about the whole thing. Generac sells these things every where. Any one can buy them on line or in the box stores. They market these things to home owners as a "you can do it" weekend project. And as usual they cover their butt by saying things like "you should contact a licensed qualified electrician for the install". But like so many thing if the HO can do it him self and get away with out the expense of an electrician or permits and inspections then he will. Will it work? Yes, if they have some knowledge about what is what. Is it a code compliant install? No.
Will it bite them if something happens and the insurance company is called in ? Hopefully it will.

 

[JES2727]

Now some will say that the disco. on the gen. will satisfy this requirement. It doesn't. It doesn't comply with 445.18 or 702.11 so it cannot comply with 225.31 or 32

Could you kindly explain exactly why the disconnect on the gen does not comply with 445.18 & 702.11?

 

[augie47]

We do not know for sure that it doesn't, however, few of the generators I have seen have a breaker identified as "suitable for service equipment" and often they are not readily accessible.
If those parameters are met or the transfer switch has a main breaker for the generator supply (and is properly located) then it would not be an issue.
Otherwise, it is.

 

[ceb58]

Could you kindly explain exactly why the disconnect on the gen does not comply with 445.18 & 702.11?

OK, for the type unit we are discussing

445.18 " Lockable in the open position"
For the unit we are discussing it is not.

702.11 "Equipped with a readily accessible disconnecting means located within sight of the building or structure supplied"
" The disconnecting means shall meet the requirements of 225.36"

The disconnect is located behind a lockable cover that is "not within sight" also it doesn't meet 225.36 " suitable for service equipment". Just because you can see the generator doesn't mean you can see the disconnect.

 

[Little Bill]

You can do as Laketime said but be aware that junction box is just that a junction box. for the generator feeders.

A disconnect will need to be installed per 225.32[/COLOR]

I understand the need for a disconnect, my question is why 225.32 is in section II. More than One Building or Other Structure. If you were looking up the need for a disconnect how would you know to look here? This section implies that the disconnecting requirements is for more than one building or other structure.