Generator and ATS install issues

[ceb58]

A disconnect will need to be installed per 225.32[/COLOR]

I understand the need for a disconnect, my question is why 225.32 is in section II. More than One Building or Other Structure. If you were looking up the need for a disconnect how would you know to look here? This section implies that the disconnecting requirements is for more than one building or other structure.

Art. 225 is for outside circutes and feeders. The generator would be considered "other structure". And coming from the generator would be the outside feeders. Look at the scope in 225.1 But lets say you are looking for info. on a install. You start, in this case, with Art. 702. Then you see in 702.11 Outdoor generator sets........................................ The disco. shall meet the requirements of 225.36. Then you go to 225.36 it tells you Suitable for service equipment. It tells you that that disco specified in 225.31 shall be suitable for use as service equipment. Then you look at 225.31 which will lead you to 225.32 for the location of the disco.

It all comes back to the fact that the feeders are installed outside and would fall under 225.

 

[Little Bill]

Art. 225 is for outside circutes and feeders. The generator would be considered "other structure". And coming from the generator would be the outside feeders. Look at the scope in 225.1 But lets say you are looking for info. on a install. You start, in this case, with Art. 702. Then you see in 702.11 Outdoor generator sets........................................ The disco. shall meet the requirements of 225.36. Then you go to 225.36 it tells you Suitable for service equipment. It tells you that that disco specified in 225.31 shall be suitable for use as service equipment. Then you look at 225.31 which will lead you to 225.32 for the location of the disco.

It all comes back to the fact that the feeders are installed outside and would fall under 225.

Thanks Ceb,
I looked up 702.11 and I only have the 2005 code book and it doesn't send you to 225.36. I'm preparing for my LLE exam and it's based on the 2005. I don't have the 08 yet so I don't get confused for the exam. I just couldn't see why the disconnecting means was listed in section II.
Thanks for clearing it up.

 

[wolfman56]

Big Problem Overlooked!

Big Problem Overlooked!

It was indicated that the generator will be on the opposite side of the home from the ATS and service.
If you were to install the wire thru or on the structure from the disconnect to the ATS, as described in the prior sentence, a very dangerous and possibly illegal situation will exist.

You would be creating a situation where there are two different service entrance locations on one structure.

What if there was a fire. The fireman cuts power to the building. They do not take the time to examine the service, etc. They cut the lines or pull the meter as always, and assume the power is off. Now the generator starts up! The fireman doesn't hear it because the new ones are pretty quiet, and its on the other side and out of view. Not only is the service now live, but the feeder passing thru the structure is also live.

The only way to avoid this is to trench in the feeders outside the structure all the way to the service.

RAW

 

[wirenuter]

We do it All the time just try and reuse the n1 n2 connector so a tech cn still disconnect these if needed during service or trouble shoot

 

[mark32]

OK, for the type unit we are discussing

445.18 " Lockable in the open position"
For the unit we are discussing it is not.

702.11 "Equipped with a readily accessible disconnecting means located within sight of the building or structure supplied"
" The disconnecting means shall meet the requirements of 225.36"

The disconnect is located behind a lockable cover that is "not within sight" also it doesn't meet 225.36 " suitable for service equipment". Just because you can see the generator doesn't mean you can see the disconnect.

Ceb58, I haven't looked at the generator itself yet, I'm curious to see if the breaker is service rated or not. I agree with what you're saying about the need for a disconnect but saying the breaker on the generator itself is not within sight is a hard sell though.

It was indicated that the generator will be on the opposite side of the home from the ATS and service.
If you were to install the wire thru or on the structure from the disconnect to the ATS, as described in the prior sentence, a very dangerous and possibly illegal situation will exist.

You would be creating a situation where there are two different service entrance locations on one structure.

What if there was a fire. The fireman cuts power to the building. They do not take the time to examine the service, etc. They cut the lines or pull the meter as always, and assume the power is off. Now the generator starts up! The fireman doesn't hear it because the new ones are pretty quiet, and its on the other side and out of view. Not only is the service now live, but the feeder passing thru the structure is also live.

The only way to avoid this is to trench in the feeders outside the structure all the way to the service.

RAW

This brings up a good question, however most of these types of installs would be guilty of this, right? On the job we had inspected, the main was inside the basement, most of the homes around here have the same setup. To comply with the grouping of disconnects article, a disconnect for the ATS would have to be installed inside near the main panel, wow that never crossed my mind.

 

[augie47]

It was indicated that the generator will be on the opposite side of the home from the ATS and service.
If you were to install the wire thru or on the structure from the disconnect to the ATS, as described in the prior sentence, a very dangerous and possibly illegal situation will exist.

You would be creating a situation where there are two different service entrance locations on one structure.

What if there was a fire. The fireman cuts power to the building. They do not take the time to examine the service, etc. They cut the lines or pull the meter as always, and assume the power is off. Now the generator starts up! The fireman doesn't hear it because the new ones are pretty quiet, and its on the other side and out of view. Not only is the service now live, but the feeder passing thru the structure is also live.

The only way to avoid this is to trench in the feeders outside the structure all the way to the service.

RAW

Not disputing the "advisability" of grouping the disconnects for "fire safety" , I can not substantiate that by Code. I find a requirement for "grouping of service disconnects" (230.72) and a requirement for "grouping of outside feeder disconnects" (225.34), but I find no requirement that these two types be grouped, in fact, 225.34(B) and 230.72(B) requires some separation.
Identifying the presence of the additional supply would be required (225.37).

 

[ceb58]

It was indicated that the generator will be on the opposite side of the home from the ATS and service.
If you were to install the wire thru or on the structure from the disconnect to the ATS, as described in the prior sentence, a very dangerous and possibly illegal situation will exist.

You would be creating a situation where there are two different service entrance locations on one structure.

What if there was a fire. The fireman cuts power to the building. They do not take the time to examine the service, etc. They cut the lines or pull the meter as always, and assume the power is off. Now the generator starts up! The fireman doesn't hear it because the new ones are pretty quiet, and its on the other side and out of view. Not only is the service now live, but the feeder passing thru the structure is also live.

The only way to avoid this is to trench in the feeders outside the structure all the way to the service.

RAW

That is the purpose of 702.8 (2008) and 225.34 (B)

Ceb58, I haven't looked at the generator itself yet, I'm curious to see if the breaker is service rated or not. I agree with what you're saying about the need for a disconnect but saying the breaker on the generator itself is not within sight is a hard sell though.

I dont see it as a hard sell at all. 702.11 "with a readily accessible disconnecting means located within sight". Looking at Generac I see two 14kw models 5872 & 5884. They both advertise "external breaker" but if the disconnect is in a "window" and it is not service rated you still need the other disconnect. The older units had the breaker under a lockable cover which in no way met the requirements.

If the breaker on the gen. is within sight,really accessible and service rated you have met 702.11 and all is good. But if the breaker is within sight, readily accessible but not service rated you must look at what 702.3 says "all applicable articles of this code" That will then take you to Art.225 for outside feeders which that is what you will have from the gen. to the building.

 

[mark32]

Not disputing the "advisability" of grouping the disconnects for "fire safety" , I can not substantiate that by Code. I find a requirement for "grouping of service disconnects" (230.72) and a requirement for "grouping of outside feeder disconnects" (225.34), but I find no requirement that these two types be grouped, in fact, 225.34(B) and 230.72(B) requires some separation.
Identifying the presence of the additional supply would be required (225.37).

Ah ha, I read those articles you specified and indeed you are required to have such a disconnect "Remote" from normal supply. Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[ceb58]

Ah ha, I read those articles you specified and indeed you are required to have such a disconnect "Remote" from normal supply. Thanks for clearing that up.

Don't forget 702.8