generator ground rod

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tom baker said:
I ran into this same issue in a seminar by Siemens on generators. Their generators are made by generac! The seminar presenter said inspectors are requiring ground rods so to avoid issues they require ground rods.
They also want ground rods on portable generators. I was irritated that they are rolling over on the NEC requirements. I am going to post this later in a separate topic as I am still irritated by this nonsense.
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Tom .,

You are not alone on this one I ran into more than I care with this issue and it kinda stinky there when someone try to installed the generator especally a generator tech don't get up to date with NEC requirements.

Please do go ahead and post a separated topic I know few of the members here will throw few comments here including myself.

Portable generators .,, that will raise few hairs on this one.

Merci.

Marc
 
augie47 said:
I discussed this with Generac a few months ago.
Their engineer advised GENERAC does require a ground rod.... factory requirement.. check the install manual.

according to him (not me) .. the design of their system will detect a "ground fault" on the line side of their disconnecting means and shut down the generator provided this goroud rod is installed...
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IN MY OPINION: Generac is not always the brightest bulb in the bunch when it comes to safety.
They only have one controller capable of Ground Fault Detection, the rest requires a separate module (which depending on how it is installed) may or may NOT shut down the genset. They know they can overrule NEC because they are the manufacturer, and use it to their advantage.
 
iand74 said:
There is grounding conductor run with the phase conductors.
It's terminated in the ATS with the grounding electrodes
and in the generator to a grounding lug inside the electrical junction box.

In addition to this, there is a grounding lug on the generator frame (on the outside of the generator).
Click to expand...

There is a difference in function between the EGC
(for equipment ground fault control)
and the GEC/ground rod
(for service side HV faulting).

Your systen is set up for BOTH:
You pulled an EGC with the conductors.
You drove a ground rod (GEC) for service side HV faulting.
If your GEC has >25 Ohms then drive a second GEC.


These things are important in system installations,
please comment.

...
 
Quote: Originally Posted by augie47 View Post
. the design of their system will detect a "ground fault"
EndQuote

Roger,

Could this be a confusion of terms between EGC ground and GEC ground?

My associates frequently allow EGC and GEC and NEUTRAL to blend together.

In fact, this distinction was given to me one day when I opened with a dumb question and my friend (Master) simply pointed out the matter of properly defining terms.
His advice made the subject of grounding, etc, much more 'interesting'
because it started making logical sense.

Your comments please.

...
 
Generatorman said:
They know they can overrule NEC because they are the manufacturer, and use it to their advantage
[End Quote]

We also contact the manufacturer frequently.

In the OP's example:
Is it possible to comply with the manufacturer's design specs
and also NEC ?
Both at the same time?

Your comments please

...
Click to expand...
 
glene77is said:
Quote: Originally Posted by augie47 View Post
. the design of their system will detect a "ground fault"
EndQuote

Roger,

Could this be a confusion of terms between EGC ground and GEC ground?
Click to expand...

Could be, and if it is true confussion by the manufacturer, they need to get better at providing technical information if they are going to give it.

IOW's, Generac should educate their people.

Roger
 
brian john said:
No ground rod / rods needed...Unless the manufacture requires it IN WRITING
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IMO not even required by the NEC at that point unless that particular instruction is part of the listing or labeling of the unit.

NEC 110.3(B) Installation and Use. Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.
Click to expand...
 
glene77is said:
There is a difference in function between the EGC
(for equipment ground fault control)
and the GEC/ground rod
(for service side HV faulting).

Your systen is set up for BOTH:
You pulled an EGC with the conductors.
You drove a ground rod (GEC) for service side HV faulting.
If your GEC has >25 Ohms then drive a second GEC.


These things are important in system installations,
please comment.

...
Click to expand...

thanks for addressing my question. i know the system is set up for both but is the ground rod really a grounding electrode in this case?
 
iand74 said:
thanks for addressing my question. i know the system is set up for both but is the ground rod really a grounding electrode in this case?
Click to expand...

Sounds like this is an auxiliary grounding electrode since it's not required by the NEC.
 
glene77is said:
Generatorman said:
They know they can overrule NEC because they are the manufacturer, and use it to their advantage
[End Quote]

We also contact the manufacturer frequently.

In the OP's example:
Is it possible to comply with the manufacturer's design specs
and also NEC ?
Both at the same time?

Your comments please

...
Click to expand...
If the grounding electrode conductor for the generator is not connected to the grounded conductor of the generator, you can install it and not have a code violation. In the absence of a transfer switch that switches the neutral, any grounding to grounded connection at the generator is a code violation...even the sometimes factory installed grounded conductor to generator frame bonding.
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The neutral "Floats" on the Genercraps, so there is no code violation connecting a ground rod or any other type of ground to the frame since it is not connected to the neutral at the generator. It is required though in their printed installation instructions. Whether they have some sort of ground fault sensing that requires it is probably B.S.
 
iwire said:
I would say suggested. :D
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Only issue for an installing contractor is not following suggested installs notes gives the manufacturean easy out should something fail. Be there logic behind the issue or not.

Fuel tanks leaks and they find out you did not drive a needless ground rod and they'll can say the leak is your fault.
 
infinity said:
Sounds like this is an auxiliary grounding electrode since it's not required by the NEC.
Click to expand...


Exactly !

If it is not a SDS then make sure they dont have a case-to-neutral connection at the generator. If they would like their installers to install a ground rod to the metal case lug...so be it but not a requirement of the NEC ( unless the manufacturer calls for this in their listing and I believe Generac just might )....again as Infinity said it's an Auxiliary Electrode.
 
radiopet said:
If they would like their installers to install a ground rod to the metal case lug...so be it but not a requirement of the NEC ( unless the manufacturer calls for this in their listing and I believe Generac just might )....again as Infinity said it's an Auxiliary Electrode.
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I do drive a rod for units with such a lug. I mention it to the customer, charge for doing it, and it's perceived as part of a well-done installation.

It certainly doesn't hurt if the genny is hit by lightning. I wouldn't want to have to defend not having driven one if such a freak accident happened.
 
It's possible that the code does require the separate GES if the generator is considered a "separate building or structure". This would be up to the AHJ.

Mark
 
I would have said it was both since an automatic generator has power going to it for battery charging and utility sensing. But if this isn't enough to make it apply then I would say that 250.32 does not say which direction the feed is going, so I would consider the wires from the Generator to the building to be feeders (since the OCPD is on the Generator).

I still think calling a generator a structure might be pushing it, but I think it may be reasonable in light of the fact that the ground rod is probably being provided for lightning protection and I could imagine a generator getting hit by a stroke.

Mark
 
busman said:
I would have said it was both since an automatic generator has power going to it for battery charging and utility sensing. But if this isn't enough to make it apply then I would say that 250.32 does not say which direction the feed is going, so I would consider the wires from the Generator to the building to be feeders (since the OCPD is on the Generator).

I still think calling a generator a structure might be pushing it, but I think it may be reasonable in light of the fact that the ground rod is probably being provided for lightning protection and I could imagine a generator getting hit by a stroke.

Mark
Click to expand...

Just my two cents but I would say the language "250.32 Buildings or Structures Supplied by a Feeder(s) or Branch Circuit(s).
(A) Grounding Electrode. Building(s) or structure(s) supplied..."
Is clear which direction the power is going.
 
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