generator install

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stew

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federal way,washington
One of our electricians is installing a generac generator with a 200 amp service rated trnasfer switch. The service disconnect is incorporated as part of the transfer switch assembly. He intercepted the service wire from the meter and went to the transfer swith disconnect. good so far but then he nippled back to the meter can and sent the conductors from the transfer switch load side to the panel via the meter can and back thru the existing nipple to the panel. My contention is that the conductors after the service disconnect from the transfer swith are now feeders and not service conductors and should not occupy the same raceway(meter can used now as raceway). Am I correct and should another raceway be provided? my sense says yes.
 
the transfer switch is right next to the meter so its very simple actuall yto nipple back and use the can as the raceway. the problem is that there is a concrete wall here so penetrating would actually be the most dififcult route.
 
Stew-I have installed several Generac systems this way-200 amp SE ATS-I thought about doing what you have described but didn't feel right about it either -whether it is a violation or not I don't know-of course your main panel is now a subpanel as I'm sure you know-Ed
 
stew said:
One of our electricians is installing a generac generator with a 200 amp service rated trnasfer switch. The service disconnect is incorporated as part of the transfer switch assembly.
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Which also includes the main OCPD, right [230.91] ?

stew said:
He intercepted the service wire from the meter and went to the transfer swith disconnect. good so far but then he nippled back to the meter can and sent the conductors from the transfer switch load side to the panel via the meter can and back thru the existing nipple to the panel. My contention is that the conductors after the service disconnect from the transfer swith are now feeders and not service conductors and should not occupy the same raceway(meter can used now as raceway). Am I correct and should another raceway be provided? my sense says yes.
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"My contention is that the conductors after the service disconnect from the transfer swith are now feeders ....."

Yep

"..... and not service conductors and should not occupy the same raceway"

Yep, 230.7
 
I bet he made the 'new' knock-out above the energized parts in the meter socket enclosure too...

My jurisdiction nor the local POCO would approve the installation you describe.

I would cite 230.7, 312.2, and violation of the FPL service standards.
 
A meter can is not a raceway even when used as such and therefore 230.7 does not apply. That section only applies to raceways and cables.
230.7 Other Conductors in Raceway or Cable
Conductors other than service conductors shall not be installed in the same service raceway or service cable.
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That wording even brings up more questions. If there are other conductors in the raceway, is it still a service raceway:D
Don
 
230.7 but they would let it pass around here. We've done it where the wall was concrete (or the riser goes through the roof) and would take a major rework ( / roof work...)

They just don't consider it a 'safety issue' here. Flame bait, I know.

Also the POCO may not allow metered and non metered conductors in the same enclosure.
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lol- how in the world can you install a meter can with those requirements!? :)
 
the ocpd is in the transfer switch. also I have posted a similar question on this forum before where we had replaced an old panel and used the old panel as a splice point to the new panel . the service conductors were spliced within this panel as well and continued on to the new panel. It was the contetion of the inspector and the consensus of this forum that in fact the old panel was now magically a "raceway" and not a panel. The same thing in mho applies to the meter can. It now becomes a racewayand cannot be used to contain both service and feeder conductors.
 
stickboy1375 said:
What size generator was supplied? I would be worried about overloading the generator... 702.5
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I was at a big @7000sq ft home the other day, happened to look at the xfer switch, 200A- Feeding a 40 circuit panel with over 60 circuits installed(split breakers). I looked at the generator,25KW Onan very rusty, and asked the homeowner if they have ever had problems with it. She said not once in 20 years-Crazy HUH?
 
all the generators i have ever seen have ocp on the generator itself that will protect the generator from overload so I dont agree thats its crazy to have a smaller gen set than what the actual panel loads maybe. The homeowner just needs to realize that the may not be able to use everything at once in an emergency. they want ony a few lites and the heat and refrigeration in most case until utility is restored. even if the gen set does not have its own breaker you must provide feeder protection anyway which would be sized to protect the gen feeders and therefore the gen set itself.
 
frogneck77 said:
I was at a big @7000sq ft home the other day, happened to look at the xfer switch, 200A- Feeding a 40 circuit panel with over 60 circuits installed(split breakers). I looked at the generator,25KW Onan very rusty, and asked the homeowner if they have ever had problems with it. She said not once in 20 years-Crazy HUH?
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Very crazy... personally i'm against 702.5, but whatever...
 
All of the generators I have installed have integral OCP as well. I always run into the situation with 13-18KW gensets where the transfer switch that comes with the gen with the breakers in it are never enough circuits to handle what the customer wants on it(multiwire circuits,multiple 240V A/H's 2A each,etc..). I used to worry about overloading the generator until I saw the house I referenced. I will typically install a 24 circuit subpanel w/ a 15KW generator now, fused properly at all points of course
Bill
 
stew said:
all the generators i have ever seen have ocp on the generator itself that will protect the generator from overload so I dont agree thats its crazy to have a smaller gen set than what the actual panel loads maybe. The homeowner just needs to realize that the may not be able to use everything at once in an emergency. they want ony a few lites and the heat and refrigeration in most case until utility is restored. even if the gen set does not have its own breaker you must provide feeder protection anyway which would be sized to protect the gen feeders and therefore the gen set itself.
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So in your statement, Do you think having a 200 amp load with a 100 amp service is legal? In your words its still protected right?

Article 220 still applies... its still a code violation...
 
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I have many ATS this way and passed them all and was only questioned once. It apperars to subject to interpretation.


Rewire said:
next time use seperate nipples and that solves the problem.
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See below...

don_resqcapt19 said:
A meter can is not a raceway even when used as such and therefore 230.7 does not apply. Don
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Some would disagree. I am not sure where I fall. By design, within a meter can, there is already service and non-service rated conductors, depending on design. The point of contention seems to be the location of OCP, and mixing them after that, but certainly a Generac service rated ATS mixes the two with OCP present. I do not see a problem or even violation, but I do not submit the approval sticker, either. :roll: :grin:
 
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