Getting a license without documented work hours

tkb

Senior Member
By having his employer 1099ing him, he wasn't covered by workers comp for the full time he was working for this guy.

He was illegally classified as a subcontractor since he isn't licensed or in his own business. The employer is circumventing the legal process of having an employee by evading taxes and workers comp.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
I think most of these guys know exactly what they are doing and what laws they are breaking and just assume they will get away with it.

History suggests that for the most part that is exactly what will happen.

Personally, I don't especially like the government deciding how much one is paid, or what benefits are given (if any). I think people should be free to make whatever deals they want to. However, that is not the way the laws are written at present and if you violate those laws there are sometimes consequences, although not real often for violating this particular law.
 

electrofelon

Senior Member
Does he have the 600 hours of classroom? There is one trick that you could investigate, my CEU instructor was talking about it with someone else who was having trouble. IIRC NH reciprocates with MA, and sometimes people find it a bit easier to get NH so they do that first.
 

tkb

Senior Member
Does he have the 600 hours of classroom? There is one trick that you could investigate, my CEU instructor was talking about it with someone else who was having trouble. IIRC NH reciprocates with MA, and sometimes people find it a bit easier to get NH so they do that first.
I don't think that works if you live in MA. I believe if you live in MA you would have to test and can't backdoor reciprocate.
 

mgookin

Senior Member
Most processes like that have an appeals process or a process where you can appear before the board. Is anything like that available?
 

growler

Senior Member
Here is a lot of info about licensing and testing in MA

http://www.mass.gov/ocabr/docs/dpl/boards/el/el-cib.pdf

On page 20 is the work experience form they are looking for.
Most processes like that have an appeals process or a process where you can appear before the board. Is anything like that available?

Looks like his boss let him down by not filling out the form 272 correctly. If he worked for the guy for over 7 years that should be a simple form to deal with.

It does ask if payroll records can be provided. I'll bet he ( the boss ) checked the "no" box.


Earlier it states that it's the license holder's responsibility to properly document the hours worked by the apprentice. A complaint can be filed against the license holder for not furnishing the correct documentation.
 

peter d

Senior Member
I've heard of this time and time again. I don't understand how someone can work that long for nothing. Apprentices should know going in that they need registered hours and schooling in order to be eligible to take the test. It's like going to college, there is a procedure and schedule to get your degree.
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
If there was workers comp there would be records of hours worked!:eek:hmy:


Most processes like that have an appeals process or a process where you can appear before the board. Is anything like that available?
Looks like his boss let him down by not filling out the form 272 correctly. If he worked for the guy for over 7 years that should be a simple form to deal with.

It does ask if payroll records can be provided. I'll bet he ( the boss ) checked the "no" box.


Earlier it states that it's the license holder's responsibility to properly document the hours worked by the apprentice. A complaint can be filed against the license holder for not furnishing the correct documentation.

Does this Guy really want to go in front of the board and state that he worked as a 1099 independent contractor and probably did not carry workers comp. :slaphead:
That would mean a prima facia case that he was a illegal contractor.
 

growler

Senior Member
Does this Guy really want to go in front of the board and state that he worked as a 1099 independent contractor and probably did not carry workers comp. :slaphead:
That would mean a prima facia case that he was a illegal contractor.

The way he was paid shouldn't be a big problem for the apprentice, it may be for the boss. He can't hide this sort of thing. $30K for 8 years is $240K and if he did this for a number of employees. A 1099 is a tax record and not a get out of jail free card.

If he can get that form 272 filled out correctly and signed and notarized then his boss will be admitting that the guy is/was an apprentice and under the supervision of a journeyman or master. He will be admitting the guy is an hourly employee but that no taxes were cut but only wages were paid and the employee received a form 1099.

If the guy were dumb enough to sign some sort of sub cantract agreement then there could be a problem.

If the boss were dumb enough to sign a contract with an unlicensed sub I think he would be in big trouble so I doubt he went that way.
 

jaylectricity

Senior Member
My old boss told me that one year he was working as an apprentice under the table. Now at the time, a letter for the hours was all you needed. Heck, 1500 of my hours came from a letter from my dad's employer in New Mexico who I worked with for a less than a year.

Anyway, at tax time my old boss's employer gave him a 1099 without warning.

So on one hand, it's your buddy's responsibility if he was working under the table (or at least maybe doing "side jobs" the whole time), but most likely his "employer" didn't want to deal with all the paperwork.

Maybe he could appeal to their common sense and say, "Even if I divided my total gross income over the years by $20 an hour that would still come to 8000 hours." Or work backward and divide his 8 years of income by 8000 hours to come up with an hourly rate and say, "You think I was making $xx per hour?"

For averaging sake let's say he worked 8000 hrs at $10/hr and 8000 hrs at $15/hr over those 8 years. That's $80,000 plus $120,000. That's $200,000 over those 8 years. Divide that $200,000 by 8000 hours and that would mean he was averaging $25 an hour if he truly only worked part-time 8000 hours over the 8 years. Not an incredible amount of pay, but certainly enough to justify that he had worked the required time. If his employer was able to vouch that all of those 1099's were for supervised electrical work that should be enough.

I mean, do they think he was only working 8 hours a week and getting paid $62.50 per hour?

And if they do think he was getting paid that much per hour, perhaps he deserves it because he's that good and who gives a care how many hours he actually worked if he knows what he's doing?
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
The way he was paid shouldn't be a big problem for the apprentice, it may be for the boss. He can't hide this sort of thing. $30K for 8 years is $240K and if he did this for a number of employees. A 1099 is a tax record and not a get out of jail free card.

If he can get that form 272 filled out correctly and signed and notarized then his boss will be admitting that the guy is/was an apprentice and under the supervision of a journeyman or master. He will be admitting the guy is an hourly employee but that no taxes were cut but only wages were paid and the employee received a form 1099.

If the guy were dumb enough to sign some sort of sub cantract agreement then there could be a problem.

If the boss were dumb enough to sign a contract with an unlicensed sub I think he would be in big trouble so I doubt he went that way.
You don't think that signing a statement that the employee was paid under the table no taxes and no workers comp paid is no big deal?
We'll that is an Automatic suspension of ones license in this state. Also it is retro-active from the date of first occurrence.
Simply stated that in the case of this character the employer would be unlicensed all those back years. Any job performed during that time was as unlicensed and subject to fines penalties and possible criminal offense. Then just to make matters worse any job done 4 years from the current date are null and void and your if sued you WILL have to return ALL money paid as you have no standing to collect or hold onto your past payments. You are done , bankrupt DONE.... :rant:


Welcome to Wonderful Kalifornia.
 

Fulthrotl

~~Please excuse the mess. Sig under construction~~
In Florida they would hang that "employer" on workmen's comp circumvention.
in calif they would hang him upside down so the small change falls out of the pockets.

seems it was a scam to avoid workers comp and other employer costs.
 

growler

Senior Member
The way he was paid shouldn't be a big problem for the apprentice, it may be for the boss.
You don't think that signing a statement that the employee was paid under the table no taxes and no workers comp paid is no big deal?
We'll that is an Automatic suspension of ones license in this state. Also it is retro-active from the date of first occurrence.


Welcome to Wonderful Kalifornia.

I said that being paid with no taxes cut should not be a problem for the apprentice. The OP stated that the apprentice filed his taxes as self employed. If he didn't cheat to much that should cover him with he IRS and state as far as taxes go. When it comes to workman's comp. insurance that responsiblity stated with the GC to make sure subs were insured and then the EC (holding the sub contract for the electrical).

What I mean is if the apprentice was working as an hourly paid employee (which appears to be the case) and his boss paid him without takeing out taxes that shouldn't be his problem.

According to what I was reading at link provided by Iwire it's the responsibility of the license holder to document the hours of the apprentice. Also they can be compelled to provide said documentation.

I think his boss is in a world of trouble and it's his own fault.

Someone had to permit all these jobs they were doing and I assume that was the company owner. If the owner wishes to insist that he subed the jobs out to a unlicensed electrician he's in trouble for that. If he admits that he had an employee and didn't file the correct taxes then he's in trouble for that.

The only way I can see the apprentice being in any real trouble is if he did sub work without being licensed. Just because the company paid him with check or cash (no taxes) and then sent him a 1099 form doesn't automatically make him a sub contractor. The apprentice was not in business and could not be expected to know all about business and tax laws.
 

growler

Senior Member
but poor guy worked 16000 hours for 10-15 bucks a hour.
Thanks for the info.....yeah I was pretty sure he was screwed. I figured maybe someone has any ideas.....One guy told him to speak with inspector and see if he can help, after 8 years of working he even knows many inspectors in towns :)

Not sure why he got 1099s. That's how employer paid everyone....well couple of people were employed.
seems it was a scam to avoid workers comp and other employer costs.

Sure it was a scam.

The employer didn't pay unemployment insurance and didn't pay his share of social security and may not have been covered by workman's comp.

After 2-3 years an employee can normally do about the same work as journeyman in residential construction. All of this for a flat cost of $15 an hour.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Anyway, at tax time my old boss's employer gave him a 1099 without warning.
It is pretty hard these days to sneak that much money past the IRS. It is not the job of the IRS to enforce the wage and hour laws, so they don't care much if someone is being paid as a sub when they should be paid as an employee with the 25-50% or more in added costs that entails.

The IRS is pretty nasty about people that cheat on their taxes and paying people without documenting it is a big red flag to the IRS, and generally pretty obvious in an audit.

So, if you are going to cheat like this, it is better to report it on a 1099 to avoid trouble with the IRS.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Sure it was a scam.

The employer didn't pay unemployment insurance and didn't pay his share of social security and may not have been covered by workman's comp.

After 2-3 years an employee can normally do about the same work as journeyman in residential construction. All of this for a flat cost of $15 an hour.
You may call it a scam, but the guy accepting the work that was paid on a 1099 was in on it and every bit as complicit.
 

growler

Senior Member
That's how employer paid everyone....well couple of people were employed. They worked say 2000 hours a year and got their 1099 for $30k, and paid taxes based on that....
You may call it a scam, but the guy accepting the work that was paid on a 1099 was in on it and every bit as complicit.

We have no idea of how many employees or over what peroid of time the company had been doing business this way.

You may find one offense the employee is guitly of and 100s for the boss.
 

Ingenieur

Senior Member
Thanks for the info.....yeah I was pretty sure he was screwed. I figured maybe someone has any ideas.....One guy told him to speak with inspector and see if he can help, after 8 years of working he even knows many inspectors in towns :)

Not sure why he got 1099s. That's how employee paid everyone....well couple of people were employed. They worked say 2000 hours a year and got their 1099 for $30k, and paid taxes based on that....
That is usually illegal
they do it to avoid workers comp, UI, etc
BS
 

petersonra

Senior Member
That is usually illegal
they do it to avoid workers comp, UI, etc
BS
It is not a crime. It is only a civil violation. Maybe a distinction without a difference.

In many cases, it is possible to structure things like this so it would not be a labor law violation, but if the only difference between regular employees and this guy was that he was paid on a 1099, it is almost certainly one or more labor law violations of some sort.
 
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