Getting tired of running accross Joe the Jackleg

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jcook said:
Just curious ....
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It all boils down to what's required in your area.
Are plumbers, electricians, tradesman all licensed?
Does doing that type of work require permits and inspections?
Last I looked (in my area), changing your oil did NOT require a permit...but getting a haircut did require a licensed barber/beautician (SP?).

Let's not forget - eventually, your "spontaneous construction" will become some elese's problem when you go to sell - do YOU disclose that YOU did this work ~ w/o the required permits?

If you want to perform a root canal on yourself - go ahead, it's not brain surgery.
 
It makes no sense to have laws which attempt to prohibit homeowners from doing their own electrical (or plumbing) work on their own homes. In fact, these laws are likely responsible for many more dangerous installations than they prevent. Virtually all civilized areas of the country require permits and inspections for most electrical work. These laws achieve the purported safety purposes of the laws which prohibit homeowners from pulling a permit. Dangerous installations exist not due to the identity of the installer, but rather the fact that permits were not pulled and inspections not conducted. Homeowners who do not pull permits are not likely to be discouraged by laws which prevent them from pulling the permit in the first place. However, a homeowner who is wiling to pull a permit and get an inspection but cannot do so due to a law prohibiting this may just go ahead and do the work without a permit/ inspection. Perhaps a better approach would be for enforcing agencies to inspect homes more thoroughly when issuing a c.o. upon resale and increase the penalities for work performed without a permit.
 
I agree that whether it's easy or difficult for a homeowner to pull a permit isn't going to affect whether the homeowner goes ahead and does the work without one. Up here, it's quite easy for a homeowner to pull an electrical permit. No plans/diagrams need to be submitted, and even if Joe Homeowner doesn't know a hammer from a wrench, he can pull a permit to do anything on his house that I can do, including installing the service. Guess how many homeowners actually pull permits. I'd have to say the numbers are low based on all the hack work I run across. Sometimes I come across DIY work that is so dangerous that I drop what I'm doing and remove the hazard.

There's nothing wrong with DIY work per se. I have taken over all the maintenance on my motorcycle after getting terrible service from paid professional mechanics. But me working on my motorcycle is perfectly legal, whereas Joe Homeowner doing electrical work on his house without a permit is illegal. Someday Joe might sell that house to someone who is unaware that Joe's terrible wiring work is hidden behind the walls. Just yesterday I spent my morning fixing all the problems that the homeowner's dad caused when he installed some lights and ceiling fans.

The whole idea behind licensing is to protect the public. Sure, no licensing scheme is going to provide 100% protection, but it beats the alternative.

Even if it were illegal for homeowners to do their own electrical work, plenty of them would do it anyway since it's hard to get caught. The only way to deal with the hack work is to step up inspections as part of the buying/selling process. Otherwise, the hack work is probably never going to be corrected.
 
I have taken over all the maintenance on my motorcycle after getting terrible service from paid professional mechanics.
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Me, I agree with everything said on this thread. I would like to point out though, that if all so called electricians provided great service at a reasonable cost, we wouldn't have as many problems. How many homeowners do things themselves because they don't know how to find a reliable electrician?
 
dlhoule said:
How many homeowners do things themselves because they don't know how to find a reliable electrician?
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The male half of the human race has a reputation (see the link to Non Sequitur above), and a significant number of us (including myself) live up to that reputation, that we hate to pay someone else to do something that we can do ourselves. I suspect that a significant number of members of the other half of the human race have similar thoughts.

Fortunately for those of us who sell our services in one way or another, there are people who prefer to pay someone else to do work, if for no better reason that it saves us from having to do work we find difficult. The trick for the service industry is to convince people that they prefer to use our services, and that they don't want to try to do it themselves.
 
charlie b said:
dlhoule said:
How many homeowners do things themselves because they don't know how to find a reliable electrician?
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The male half of the human race has a reputation (see the link to Non Sequitur above), and a significant number of us (including myself) live up to that reputation, that we hate to pay someone else to do something that we can do ourselves. I suspect that a significant number of members of the other half of the human race have similar thoughts.
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Yeah, I know what you mean. Last week my friend was experiencing some acute abdominal pain, and since he is male, he didn't want to have to pay someone else to do something that he could do himself. Having seen several episodes of "ER" and "M*A*S*H," some of which featured scenes showing surgery, he clearly knew enough to perform a simple appendectomy. Just to be safe, though, he went to the the neighborhood drug store and got some pointers from the guy stocking the shelves where they display bandages and other medical stuff (the aisle next to the one where they have the potato chips and discounted Easter candy). He was able to get his appendix out without too much difficulty. He does have a high fever and is bleeding a lot, but I'm sure it's nothing to worry about.

charlie b said:
Fortunately for those of us who sell our services in one way or another, there are people who prefer to pay someone else to do work, if for no better reason that it saves us from having to do work we find difficult. The trick for the service industry is to convince people that they prefer to use our services, and that they don't want to try to do it themselves.
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This assumes that people recognize and respect their limits. Electrical work is quite easy if you don't know or care if it's done according to code.
 
jcook said:
Just curious about all of you who hate DYI people, do you hire out your plumbing repairs? How about that hole in the wall that needs a little patch? Change your own oil in the truck? I know I am going to get bashed by those who say there is a big differance between what I have asked and electrical work, but I know several people who are not electricians by trade that are more than capable of installing a new recptacle in their living room on a dedicated circuit for their new TV. I also know several who are not. I do not disagree with those who seek advice at the big box stores are relying on an"expert" because they are in the aisle marked electric for that shift. How many of you have gotten advice sitting on the stool of a local supply house? How many times have you heard what I call "supply house code referances" that are not even close to what is in the NEC. In our area a homeowner must get a permit and an inspection. I also know the local AHJ tries to discourage that work but is obligated to inspect whether it is Mr. Homeowner or Mr. Contractor.
I am not saying DYI should be allowed to do work or not but it is what made this country what it is. Remeber learning how to fix the car with Dad on Saturday? I bet the local garage owner did not like me and Dad doing "his work" either. But it is and will be a fact that people will try to do anything they think they can just for the experiance and satisfaction of being able to say "I did that".
How many of you have built that deck on the back of your house? Or that addition to your house when the local carpenter plumber and HVAC guy just drove past and waved?

Come on guys it is just electric work not brain surgery!!!!

OK let the bashing begin.
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Because electricity is dangerous and can hurt/kill/cause damage if done improperly.
 
I don't believe the problem is homeowners doing their own work. After all, here in MN we are required by state madate that all electrical work is to be inspected. Even seasoned electricians can be hacks. It's the ones that take personal pride in a job well done that do the good work and more or less guarantee their own job security.

If we are going to ban homeowners from doing their own electrical work, in all fairness should we also consider plumbing, carpentry, heating, auto mechanic, lawn care, house cleaning, driving our car, first-aid, ... where should I stop? Most of us have been trained and licensed to be qualified drivers but that doesn't stop us from passing on the shoulder, running yellow lights, speeding, driving under the influence, leaving our safety belts off, etc. As I have said in the past, a license does not guarantee quality.

It takes a good sense of ethics and it is easy to question how much we really have in our society today.

Bob
 
bthielen said:
I don't believe the problem is homeowners doing their own work. After all, here in MN we are required by state madate that all electrical work is to be inspected. Even seasoned electricians can be hacks. It's the ones that take personal pride in a job well done that do the good work and more or less guarantee their own job security.
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Yes and no. One problem I see is that a lot of homeowners don't seem to know the difference between good work and bad work, particularly when the work is hidden. Suppose I did a remodel job and left lots of flying splices inside the walls. As long as everything worked once the job was completed, the homeowner would be happy. There are all kinds of things I could do poorly that the homeowner would not notice. As a result, it's sometimes tough to sell them on the idea that it would be better to hire me at a higher rate that it would be to hire the cut-rate handyman.

Despite the state mandate we have here, I see plenty of work that was obviously never inspected. That mandate is too easy to ignore if you aren't licensed, as they aren't going to go after homeowners who do electrical work without permits/inspections. The state inspectors I deal with are busy enough as it is, and someone I know at the state once told me that they don't have the resources.

bthielen said:
If we are going to ban homeowners from doing their own electrical work, in all fairness should we also consider plumbing, carpentry, heating, auto mechanic, lawn care, house cleaning, driving our car, first-aid, ... where should I stop? Most of us have been trained and licensed to be qualified drivers but that doesn't stop us from passing on the shoulder, running yellow lights, speeding, driving under the influence, leaving our safety belts off, etc. As I have said in the past, a license does not guarantee quality.
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True, but if someone with a license is doing bad work, the license can be taken away. If you get caught driving under the influence, they automatically take your driver's license away. All the license means is that the holder was able to demonstrate that they met the minimum standard for the license. If someone has no license at all, then it's anyone's guess as to what their abilities are. They might know what they are doing, but I suspect someone with no license is much less likely to.

It's quite rare that I run into bad electrical work that was done by someone who was licensed. And when see electrical work that was done very well, I'm not surprised when I find out it was done by a licensed EC.

bthielen said:
It takes a good sense of ethics and it is easy to question how much we really have in our society today.

Bob
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I couldn't agree more. If licensed pros don't behave ethically, it makes people not want to deal with them. Plenty of times I have talked people out of what would have been lucrative jobs for me because it was work they didn't need. For example, one homeowner wanted a service upgrade for the finished basement they were doing, but they were barely using the 100A service they had. All they really needed was more slots for breakers, so I sold them on a panel upgrade instead. It cost them a lot less money (I showed them how much less), and they got the result they wanted. Helping people find a cost-effective solution rather than the one where I make the most money tends to leave them happy, and people like that often tell their friends about me, which is good for business. I get about half my business through referrals.
 
bthielen: Curious: Where is Alexandria? Oh and I do agree with you. :) Over the years I have seen excellent work done by Homeowners, and work bordering on the criminal by licensed people. Overall though, the licensed people are head and shoulders above HOs when doing electrical work. :D
 
First, Alexandria is located roughly midway between the twin cities and Fargo, ND on I-94.

Jeff, I must admit I have a difficulty disagreeing with any of your comments especially your comment that, for the most part, licensed electricians provide much higher quality work than your average H.O. As far as whether the state will not go after H.O. work that has not been inspected, in our area I know of a few instances where this was not true.

A friend of mine had added on a garage to his home and I told him he will be required to file an afidavit. He did not do so and it turned out that the local inspector had driven past, noticed his new addition, and stopped in to inquire why he was never called to inspect. He was also required to obtain a building permit, which he failed to do. My friend had already finished the interior with drywall. When he refused to comply, he came home from work the next day with a notice on his door indicating that his electrical power would be disconnected if he did not file the proper paperwork within so many days. Needless to say, he was quite upset when he was forced to expose various sections of the work to satisfy the inspector. Of course to my friend, the inspector was the bad guy when what he did was for my friend's own protection.

This is an example of what I was referring to. If our laws are enforced or we exercised better ethics overall things can be improved.

Another example. Consider our highway speeds. What percentage of drivers don't exceed the speed limit these days? It's because the law is not enforced as rigorously as it should. Is it then appropriate that we outlaw driving unless one has a commercial license to do so? Even taking away a person's license for DUI violations doesn't seem to stop them from driving.

Or consider our law that requires us to carry insurance and proof thereof. I have never been checked for proof of insurance or vehicle registration when stopped for any reason. If the insurance law was fairly enforced you or I wouldn't have to carry non-insured motorist protection.

Bob
 
As I said the bashing began, but I am not advocating the average homeowner to do his own work if he is not capable. I am not advocating that the box stores give advice to those who seek it either. I am stating a fact that the work is getting done and all of us in this trade have seen their share of horror work that might or did hurt someone or something. Aftershock your comment about electricity hurting or killing someone is correct but so will bad plumbing or carpentry work. (remeber the deck that collapsed in Chicago?)
All I am implying is IF the proper permit is pulled and the inspection proccess followed the way the law requires it, then why are we all up in arms about the "who" did it? I agree also that I probably went overboard with the brain surgery thing.
I also am one who has spent the biggest part of my adult life in this trade. 25 plus years, Master Electrician and for 13 1/2 years was head electrician in a hospital. I also hold a master electricians license. I have for the last 11 years taught all of the electrical classes offered by our local community college.
I also built my own house that I currently live in and did everything but the HVAC and plumbing, those I bartered with other tradesmen to do their electrical work on their new houses.
So I guess I am one of those DYER's because I do do it myself. That does not mean that I walked down the aisle at the big box store and asked how to install the footers or anything else.
As other posters have said good work comes from pride and ethics about how you do your job. How many of you have heard the statement"what does it matter no one will see it"? That really makes me sick to thick that those kind of guys on a jobsite outnumber those of us who do care no matter who see or who doesn't.
None of you answered, except for the stair builder, if you did all your own projects or if you hired it out. That makes you a DY kind of guy also.
 
I don't care who does the work, provided they follow the law as far as permits and inspections are concerned. Very few DIYers in my experience do that. As you might expect, most of their work is below standards.

As for my own projects, I've only been in my house 3.5 years, and the only work I've done on the place has been electrical (and I did pull a permit). If I needed plumbing or HVAC work done, I doubt I'd want to spend the time trying to learn everything I needed to know, and I also wouldn't want to invest in tools I probably wouldn't use again.
 
IMO jcook is right on. One has to follow the law - other than that, have at it. Where I live that is pretty minimum. Big Brother is not looking out for me. And I generally don't feel safer when he tries (she?)

"Hi - I'm with the County Inspection Division. I've got a gun and a badge. I'm here to help you."

"Hi - I'm with the FAA. I'm here to help you."

"Hi - I'm Carol Browner with the EPA. We charge corporations with violations just to get concessions. It doesn't matter if they are guilty or not, it costs too much to fight us so they give up the concessions."

Let's see:

I'm building my own airplane - no, it's not an ultralight. I'll have one mandated inspection where the general workmanship is inspected and the weight and balance calcs are checked. Will it fly? Well the law says I can't try it out over the top of your house for the first forty hours. After that, right over your house is okay.

I reload my own ammunition. No gov'mnt license required - buy all the supplies at the local store.

I'm building my own house. The state DEC required filing a paper showing the septic is at least 100 feet from the well and the drain field is at least 275sq-ft per bedroom. My permit? $5 for the driveway permit that gets me an address - no other permits or inspections required. Yes I'm doing my own electrical, plumbing, mechanical, foundation, engineering, plans, welded the steel, even for the second story garage. Yes, I hired out a lot of work.

Is this stuff safe for the ordinary mortal to do? I hope so. Cause according to my good buddy TK, even though it pi$$e$ me off, I am just a mere mortal. :shock:

Does the house meet codes? Pretty much codes are dead minimums. The state says I have to follow the codes, but I certainly want better than that. So yes, generally. Then again, I didn't put any recptacles in the kitchen island :oops: - ***

Just out of curousity, which of the above does anyone consider less dangerous than doing ones own wiring?

If one wants to DYI, then have at it. But I would recommend doing the research first - possibly from sources other than the Big Orange aisle clerk. Like Iwire (er ... Clint) says, "You got to know your limitations"


carl

***but I did put in provision to put one in - box and a wire stub - just in case the next owners want one.
 
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