GFCI 2020--UH OH

[kwired]

Pardon if this was mentioned already. Take a look at 210.8(F). This would require the typical condensing unit in a dwelling to have GFCI.

First I ever heard of it, but reading what it says, yes. It doesn't mention receptacles, which might make more sense, it just says "outlets" along with outdoors, 150 volts to ground or less and 50 amps or less. Pretty much covers everything you might commonly find outdoors at a dwelling other than some 5 ton heat pumps/AC's might call for a 60 amp breaker.

This is stupid for anything hard wired IMO, if there is a receptacle involved I still don't know that darn near everything should be included, but makes a little more sense than hard wired items.

 

[mbrooke]

If only we could finally adopt descending ma value designs here MBrooke....:happyyes:~RJ~

Beats having a panel full of these:

 

[mbrooke]

First I ever heard of it, but reading what it says, yes. It doesn't mention receptacles, which might make more sense, it just says "outlets" along with outdoors, 150 volts to ground or less and 50 amps or less. Pretty much covers everything you might commonly find outdoors at a dwelling other than some 5 ton heat pumps/AC's might call for a 60 amp breaker.

This is stupid for anything hard wired IMO, if there is a receptacle involved I still don't know that darn near everything should be included, but makes a little more sense than hard wired items.

This might shed light:

The rationale for change

One downfall of the electrical business is that it's more reactive than proactive, with accidents often the catalyst for change. Numerous incidents inspired this code change, including an accident involving a 12-year-old boy who jumped over a fence and touched an AC condenser unit with an electrical fault. The outer metal housing was electrified and the child was fatally electrocuted immediately upon coming in contact with the condenser and fence simultaneously.

The rationale for change

NEC 2017 language only accounts for 15- and 20-amp receptacle outlets for dwelling units. During 2020 code review meetings, panel members agreed that hazards always exist; if 15- and 20-amp receptacle outlets present a hazard, that hazard also exists on 30-amp and higher receptacle outlets. However, it was difficult to understand the likelihood of a hazardous occurrence when weighed against expanded requirements. Recent home-based electrocution accidents – a 10-year-old girl behind an energized appliance, a child in Oklahoma retrieving a pet behind a clothes dryer, a 10-year-old Houston boy playing hide and seek — helped panel members realize the need for change. In light of these tragic events, we now have a requirement that sets a higher standard across more areas of the Code, though there are some exceptions discussed later in this blog.

http://www.p3-inc.com/blog/entry/nec...fci-protection

However, a lot of hard wired electrocutions stem from people who not only disregard code but lack an understanding of basic electricity.

 

[hbiss]

Are they going to have 2 pole GFCI breakers in like 25A ratings for A/C units?

However, a lot of hard wired electrocutions stem from people who not only disregard code but lack an understanding of basic electricity.

Very true. This assumes that those installations which were improperly wired to begin with would be wired correctly with a GFCI breaker. If they were wired properly WITHOUT a GFCI breaker those accidents wouldn't have happened.

-Hal

 

[ptonsparky]

Beats having a panel full of these:

wow.

 

[winnie]

pretty bus bars. why black for neutral?

 

[kwired]

Are they going to have 2 pole GFCI breakers in like 25A ratings for A/C units?



Very true. This assumes that those installations which were improperly wired to begin with would be wired correctly with a GFCI breaker. If they were wired properly WITHOUT a GFCI breaker those accidents wouldn't have happened.

-Hal

I agree, incidents probably never happen in first place if installed properly. Now you make a rule that same ignorant people won't follow anyway, and will get away with it anyway if there is no permit or inspection. Some of us professionals still try to meet code even in cases where permits/inspections are not required - it isn't good to get insurance claims when you didn't follow the standards.

And now that they finally succumbed to the fact that there is always a danger, how do you select where to add requirements vs just saying everything needs the protection?

GFCI is ok, but a little too sensitive to natural leakages and causes a lot of problems with things that are working fine. Problem is if there is no EGC GFPE still leaves one kind of vulnerable if some appliance frame is energized with no current leakage. This leaves me acknowledging that GFCI is the best thing we have for cord and plug connected items, in particular 5-15 and 5-20 receptacle applications where the EGC seems to be commonly missing. Everything else I still think more emphasis on having good EGC needs to be taken.

Maybe they should put some sort of EGC monitoring on appliances that will disable them when there is no EGC detected. Then you will kind of have to enforce upgrading older circuits with no EGC in order for the new appliance to even work. That said people will still bootleg from neutral in some instances.

 

[mbrooke]

wow.

Give it a few more code cycles and commercial/industrial panels in the US will probably look like this but with dual function AFCI/GFCI.

 

[mbrooke]

pretty bus bars. why black for neutral?

Old British wiring colors. I don't blame those who refuse to relinquish them. Brown/Black/Grey/Blue looks indistinguishable a few years after installation.

 

[mbrooke]

Are they going to have 2 pole GFCI breakers in like 25A ratings for A/C units?



Very true. This assumes that those installations which were improperly wired to begin with would be wired correctly with a GFCI breaker. If they were wired properly WITHOUT a GFCI breaker those accidents wouldn't have happened.

-Hal

Exactly. If idiots can screw up an EGC they can screw up a GFCI. Its just punishing those doing safe installations.

 

[mbrooke]

GFCI is ok, but a little too sensitive to natural leakages and causes a lot of problems with things that are working fine.

Physics would agree with you

 

[ramsy]

1

 

[ptonsparky]

http://www.levitonproducts.com/catalog/model_8895.htm

I never heard why they were discontinued. Anyone know? They didn’t seem to be on the market all that long.

 

[al hildenbrand]

http://www.levitonproducts.com/catalog/model_8895.htm

I remember those. A device with a controlled relay in a box larger than switch box . . . whatever the controlled power relay requires.

Manufacturers are making GFCI breakers with the requisite interrupting capacity self contained. . . we need that in a device, that's what I'm saying.

 

[romex jockey]

Physics would agree with you

I'm a tad weak in the math dept MBrooke....:ashamed1:~RJ~

 

[romex jockey]

http://www.levitonproducts.com/catalog/model_8895.htm

8895-80.pdf

One could install one of those ahead of a subpanel.....IF they still made them

~RJ~

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I never heard why they were discontinued. Anyone know? They didn’t seem to be on the market all that long.

Probably because no one used them

 

[kwired]

One could install one of those ahead of a subpanel.....IF they still made them

~RJ~

Then it would be subject to all the capacitive leakage of every circuit leaving the panel and likely has too much nuisance tripping in many instances.


Whether they were discontinued IDK, but the sheet ramsy posted a link for says they are a recognized component - they were only indended to be used in listed assembly applications.

That said I don't see why they couldn't make something similar and get it listed - $$ probably appears to be elsewhere is my guess, or the breaker manufacturers have the market somewhat cornered right now and the device manufacturers now have reason to work on something like this and will be coming soon.

 

[ptonsparky]

Probably because no one used them

I wanted one and they were already discontinued. I could have made their year if they had waited.

 

[mbrooke]

Then it would be subject to all the capacitive leakage of every circuit leaving the panel and likely has too much nuisance tripping in many instances.


Whether they were discontinued IDK, but the sheet ramsy posted a link for says they are a recognized component - they were only indended to be used in listed assembly applications.

That said I don't see why they couldn't make something similar and get it listed - $$ probably appears to be elsewhere is my guess, or the breaker manufacturers have the market somewhat cornered right now and the device manufacturers now have reason to work on something like this and will be coming soon.

I'd agree. But Kwired, how would you feel is this was your next commercial panel?






https://forums.mikeholt.com/forum/a...2538913-gfci-2020-uh-oh?p=2547396#post2547396