GFCI and RV parks

[kwired]

2017 NEC made big changes to 210.8 (B) - basically requiring all non dwelling single phase 50 amp receptacles operating 150 volt or less to ground to be GFCI protected.


Yet 551.71(F) only requires GFCI protection for the 15/20 amp 120 volt receptacle, as has been in the past.

What do some of you think that means when it comes to RV parks? Did they overlook 551 when they rewrote 210.8? Or do they not intend to need the 30 and 50 amp receptacles on GFCI at RV parks?

Have possible job upcoming where may be installing a few pedestals for RV's. Do they have pedestals with GFCI for the 30 and 50 amp outlets - all I ever installed in past only had GFCI on the 15/20 amp outlet, but haven't installed any of these for maybe 10 -15 years.

 

[JFletcher]

Looking at 90.3, I would say that if 551.71 does not require GFI protection on 50 amp receptacles for RVs, then they are not required.

 

[Little Bill]

The RV itself will have the needed GFCI protection at the required places. I'm guessing that's why it wasn't required for the pedestal.

 

[kwired]

Looking at 90.3, I would say that if 551.71 does not require GFI protection on 50 amp receptacles for RVs, then they are not required.

That is where I have somewhat of a problem. 210.8 would be the general rule, and 551 could override 210. Here we have a general rule that would normally require GFCI for outdoor receptacle that is not at a dwelling (the 30 and 50 amp receptacles in question) but 551.71 doesn't exactly exempt them - it just mentions the 15/20 amp receptacle - which would be required to be GFCI protected anyway by 210.8 if 551.71 didn't exist.

If anything looks more to me like code making process didn't quite coordinate these two sections and they somewhat are conflicting. Probably different CMP's involved with each section and that doesn't help either.

 

[ptonsparky]

That is where I have somewhat of a problem. 210.8 would be the general rule, and 551 could override 210. Here we have a general rule that would normally require GFCI for outdoor receptacle that is not at a dwelling (the 30 and 50 amp receptacles in question) but 551.71 doesn't exactly exempt them - it just mentions the 15/20 amp receptacle - which would be required to be GFCI protected anyway by 210.8 if 551.71 didn't exist.

If anything looks more to me like code making process didn't quite coordinate these two sections and they somewhat are conflicting. Probably different CMP's involved with each section and that doesn't help either.

Not being mentioned is exactly how they are exempt, according to my last code class instructor. Permissive by omission.

 

[jap]

Looking at 90.3, I would say that if 551.71 does not require GFI protection on 50 amp receptacles for RVs, then they are not required.

That's a good catch.

JAP>

 

[lordofthisworld]

2017 NEC made big changes to 210.8 (B) - basically requiring all non dwelling single phase 50 amp receptacles operating 150 volt or less to ground to be GFCI protected.


Yet 551.71(F) only requires GFCI protection for the 15/20 amp 120 volt receptacle, as has been in the past.

What do some of you think that means when it comes to RV parks? Did they overlook 551 when they rewrote 210.8? Or do they not intend to need the 30 and 50 amp receptacles on GFCI at RV parks?

Have possible job upcoming where may be installing a few pedestals for RV's. Do they have pedestals with GFCI for the 30 and 50 amp outlets - all I ever installed in past only had GFCI on the 15/20 amp outlet, but haven't installed any of these for maybe 10 -15 years.

1) Is an RV considered a Non-dwelling? 552-4 states its intended for seasonal use, it’s not intended for permanent dwelling.
2) Would A552-43 fall into the ? you are asking? If so, I don’t see where you would have to use a GFCI.
3) Are you talking about the 50A breaker that feeds the RV/camper or just a general recept.

 

[kwired]

1) Is an RV considered a Non-dwelling? 552-4 states its intended for seasonal use, it’s not intended for permanent dwelling.
2) Would A552-43 fall into the ? you are asking? If so, I don’t see where you would have to use a GFCI.
3) Are you talking about the 50A breaker that feeds the RV/camper or just a general recept.

IDK.

An RV isn't a dwelling unit according to NEC IMO. 210.8 basically says a non dwelling receptacle operating 150 volts or less to ground needs GFCI protection. Both typical 30A 120 volt and 50 amp 120/240 receptacles used for RV's fall under that if there is no other exception/exemption.

The 15/20 amp 120 volt receptacle isn't an issue - they have been required by both 210.8 and in 551 for some time now, in fact I think 551 maybe even required GFCI for such receptacle before 210.8 would have required it for all outdoor receptacles as the general rule.

Put the 30 or 50 amp outlet on side of a dwelling unit or even side wall of a dwelling accessory building - is doesn't meet the requirements of 210.8 which only addresses 15/20 amp 120 volt receptacles. Put it anywhere that is non dwelling - and in 2017 NEC it needs GFCI protection even though the intended use may not have changed. My guess is it is more of an oversight that nothing changed in 551. Even if they don't intend to have GFCI on said receptacles, I think it is lacking language to confirm that.

 

[ptonsparky]

IDK.

An RV isn't a dwelling unit according to NEC IMO. 210.8 basically says a non dwelling receptacle operating 150 volts or less to ground needs GFCI protection. Both typical 30A 120 volt and 50 amp 120/240 receptacles used for RV's fall under that if there is no other exception/exemption.

The 15/20 amp 120 volt receptacle isn't an issue - they have been required by both 210.8 and in 551 for some time now, in fact I think 551 maybe even required GFCI for such receptacle before 210.8 would have required it for all outdoor receptacles as the general rule.

Put the 30 or 50 amp outlet on side of a dwelling unit or even side wall of a dwelling accessory building - is doesn't meet the requirements of 210.8 which only addresses 15/20 amp 120 volt receptacles. Put it anywhere that is non dwelling - and in 2017 NEC it needs GFCI protection even though the intended use may not have changed. My guess is it is more of an oversight that nothing changed in 551. Even if they don't intend to have GFCI on said receptacles, I think it is lacking language to confirm that.

IDK if it's lacking or not. Surely the posters here can not be the only ones to see a glitch.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Looking at 90.3, I would say that if 551.71 does not require GFI protection on 50 amp receptacles for RVs, then they are not required.

That is the issue...I look at it as unless 551 says 210.8(B) does not apply, it does. There are a number of PIs to address this through out the code for the 2020 cycle.

 

[jap]

IDK if it's lacking or not. Surely the posters here can not be the only ones to see a glitch.

Basically since there seems to be a "glitch" that means it's lacking.


JAP>

 

[JFletcher]

Not being mentioned is exactly how they are exempt, according to my last code class instructor. Permissive by omission.

:happyyes:

I agree.

And if for some reason the AHJ doesnt see it my way, 50A GFCI 240V breakers w/neutral are available, and not too terribly expensive. Yeah, if you need 50 of them, it will cost ~$3k or so... put that in your price/bid, refund the owner if they aren't needed.

Eta: if 551.71 wanted to duplicate language of 210.8, that section would say something to the effect of "see 210.8". Whether the omission, if in fact there is one, is intentional or not, 551.71 does not require GFCI protection for 50 amp receptacles, and chapter 5 modifies chapters 1 through 4.

 

[lordofthisworld]

IDK.

An RV isn't a dwelling unit according to NEC IMO. 210.8 basically says a non dwelling receptacle operating 150 volts or less to ground needs GFCI protection. Both typical 30A 120 volt and 50 amp 120/240 receptacles used for RV's fall under that if there is no other exception/exemption.

The 15/20 amp 120 volt receptacle isn't an issue - they have been required by both 210.8 and in 551 for some time now, in fact I think 551 maybe even required GFCI for such receptacle before 210.8 would have required it for all outdoor receptacles as the general rule.

Put the 30 or 50 amp outlet on side of a dwelling unit or even side wall of a dwelling accessory building - is doesn't meet the requirements of 210.8 which only addresses 15/20 amp 120 volt receptacles. Put it anywhere that is non dwelling - and in 2017 NEC it needs GFCI protection even though the intended use may not have changed. My guess is it is more of an oversight that nothing changed in 551. Even if they don't intend to have GFCI on said receptacles, I think it is lacking language to confirm that.

Truthfully I own a park model trailer in the state of Maine, my trailer Is fed from an 50 amp pedestal and it’s not a GFCI breaker. But this was before 2017 code came out. This is a very vague code, Does construction job site trailers fall into this category?

 

[kwired]

:happyyes:

I agree.

And if for some reason the AHJ doesnt see it my way, 50A GFCI 240V breakers w/neutral are available, and not too terribly expensive. Yeah, if you need 50 of them, it will cost ~$3k or so... put that in your price/bid, refund the owner if they aren't needed.

Eta: if 551.71 wanted to duplicate language of 210.8, that section would say something to the effect of "see 210.8". Whether the omission, if in fact there is one, is intentional or not, 551.71 does not require GFCI protection for 50 amp receptacles, and chapter 5 modifies chapters 1 through 4.

Chapter 5 articles don't need to duplicate any language in chapters 1-4. 1-4 is the general rules and applies unless 5-7 specifically modifies a rule from 1-4.

As is now the GFCI requirement in 551 for the 15/20 amp 120 volt receptacle is redundant - is already required by 210.8. Guessing it is mostly there because they wanted GFCI there before 210.8 required GFCI for basically all outdoor applications, then it never got changed. Now we had another change in 210.8 - but they missed 551 again - regardless of whether they intend protection there or not. If they don't intend protection there - they need to come out and say it in 551. If they want it - they need to remove any current GFCI requirements there and let 210.8 remain the general rule. Nothing wrong with an informational note if they want to remind you of 210.8 though.