GFCI at ice tub

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guschash

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I had a question ask of me if a GFCI is required at those tub where they dump the ice at a bar. No running water just tub with ice. Receptacle with in 6 ' of tub.
 
I'd say yes because the ice melts and you have a tub of water or a tub of ice water.
 
mgookin said:
I'd say yes because the ice melts and you have a tub of water or a tub of ice water.
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Imo it would be a real stretch to call it a sink to invoke any of 210.8, but I agree that it's probably a good idea- the area could get considerably damp/wet from the tub/tub drain tube leaking.
 
I just read 210 and I don't see where it's exempt. I'd put it in.
Would you rather get sued for $16 for spending the guy's money or for $2MM for his drunk and (???) employee reaching in a pool of water to retrieve whatever she just dropped in there?
I'm assuming this is a bar/ nightclub based on the OP.
 
Ive read thru 210.8 (2008 cycle) and tho an ice tub is not a sink by definition, in practice it's close enough: metal thing that holds what will be water by night's end, and someone is scooping ice out of it either with a glass (wrong way) or more likely a metal ice scoop.

If the bar has a kitchen, depending on how it's physically laid out, the tub might be considered part of the kitchen.

Even if it's permissible to not have GFCI protection, I'd err on the side of caution here. NEC is a minimum set of standards; exceeding it once in a while, especially over something you see as a potential safety concern, is not a bad idea at all.

Keep in mind these bins have to be cleaned and will likely be full of hot water/cleaning solution every night/once a week? Might suck for someone if that plugged in margarita blender fell in while that was happening.
 
This is not a sink.

A bowl, bucket, dish, glass, cup of water is not a sink. Neither is a fish tank, or anything else that possibly might hold water.

The blender in the bar can hold water as well but is not a sink.

If you want GFCI protection in the vicinity where any of these items normally are placed but is not otherwise required in 210.8, there is nothing says you can't provide that protection.

The thing that increases shock hazard isn't water alone, it is proximity to grounded objects and is further complicated when there is also a presence of water. If this is a non metallic tub on a non conductive counter with a non conductive floor - the risks of it being an electrical hazard are not that high. An actual plumbed in sink has water lines and drain lines that even with the absence of other grounded objects being nearby may still give some current path to ground.
 
kwired said:
This is not a sink.

A bowl, bucket, dish, glass, cup of water is not a sink. Neither is a fish tank, or anything else that possibly might hold water.

The blender in the bar can hold water as well but is not a sink.

If you want GFCI protection in the vicinity where any of these items normally are placed but is not otherwise required in 210.8, there is nothing says you can't provide that protection.

The thing that increases shock hazard isn't water alone, it is proximity to grounded objects and is further complicated when there is also a presence of water. If this is a non metallic tub on a non conductive counter with a non conductive floor - the risks of it being an electrical hazard are not that high. An actual plumbed in sink has water lines and drain lines that even with the absence of other grounded objects being nearby may still give some current path to ground.
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I agree.
 
Sink is not defined in the NEC.

I would say that if this ice dump tub has a drain plumbed into the building DWV system, it is a sink, even without running water.

Cheers, Wayne
 
After looking up the definition of sink (noun) using sources that I can find they all say a sink has a water inlet and outlet, which this tub does not have. I'll therefore change my position on whether it's required. I'll go with not required. But still good practice.
 
wwhitney said:
Sink is not defined in the NEC.

I would say that if this ice dump tub has a drain plumbed into the building DWV system, it is a sink, even without running water.

Cheers, Wayne
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A washing machine is plumbed into both supply and waste, it also holds water.

Is it a sink?
 
It is fun arguing this however this will be an authority having jurisdiction call. My opinion- not required however if this area is considered a kitchen then it is required. Sounds like it is just a bar so I stand by not required....:D
 
iwire said:
A washing machine is plumbed into both supply and waste, it also holds water.

Is it a sink?
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I'm going to appeal to the definition at http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sink which reads: "a stationary basin connected with a drain and usually a water supply for washing and drainage". That definition includes a ice dump tub with a plumbed drain. It doesn't include a washing machine, as the basin isn't stationary.

Cheers, Wayne
 
wwhitney said:
I'm going to appeal to the definition at http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sink which reads: "a stationary basin connected with a drain and usually a water supply for washing and drainage". That definition includes a ice dump tub with a plumbed drain. It doesn't include a washing machine, as the basin isn't stationary.

Cheers, Wayne
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The basket inside of a tub is not stationary on a typical washing machine but the tub is relatively stationary - only has limited movement on a shock absorbing suspension system.:p

Now how about a typical household dishwasher? Only reason we now have GFCI requirements for them has nothing to do with the fact it holds water but rather because they decided it may help with some fires that start in the wiring of some units - though IMO this should be remedied by product recall not a change in codes.
 
wwhitney said:
I'm going to appeal to the definition at http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sink which reads: "a stationary basin connected with a drain and usually a water supply for washing and drainage". That definition includes a ice dump tub with a plumbed drain. It doesn't include a washing machine, as the basin isn't stationary.

Cheers, Wayne
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So a dishwasher is a sink. Got it.

A commercial ice machine is a sink. Got that too.;)


Not buying your appeal. Cheers! :D
 
iwire said:
So a dishwasher is a sink. Got it.

A commercial ice machine is a sink. Got that too.;)
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I didn't know that commercial ice machines sometimes get plumbed into the DWV system, thanks. Anyway, you've pointed out the failings of that definition, I agree.

Nonetheless, I am of the opinion that if you take a "usual" sink and delete the faucet, it's still a sink. In the OP's case, instead of pressurized running water on tap, the water is brought in by dumping ice. Aren't the electrical hazards (if any) still comparable?

[Of course, I'm assuming that the OP's ice dump tub is a fixed vessel plumbed into the DWV system.]

Cheers, Wayne
 
JFletcher said:
Is it a washer? Is it a sink? Yes, it's a Samsung!
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Well,
1. They call it a sink.
2. It has a water inlet, but is only indirectly connected to a drain, via the wash tub and its drain pump, through a non-conductive hose.
3. It is made of a non-conductive material
4. But you could still drop a toaster or hair dryer into it....:angel:
 
My condensate pan below my blower unit at home fills up with water when the air conditioner is on, which has a drain piped out of it, so I guess its a sink also.


JAP>
 
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