little george
Member
May I install a self contained pool heater with 240v / single phase / 50a circuit without GFCI protection?
GFCI for electric pool water heater
- Thread starter little george
- Start date
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jumper
Senior Member
- Location
- 3 Hr 2 Min from Winged Horses
So far I have only found 680.9 and no mention of GFCI.
I wanna keep looking though.
I wanna keep looking though.
cpinetree
Senior Member
- Location
- SW Florida
We have never installed a pool heater on a GFCI circuit.
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- Semi-retired engineer
which could mean:
it is not required by code,
it is required by code and you don't know about the requirement, or
it is required by code and you just ignore the requirement.
jumper
Senior Member
- Location
- 3 Hr 2 Min from Winged Horses
which could mean:
it is not required by code,
it is required by code and you don't know about the requirement, or
it is required by code and you just ignore the requirement.
I was trying to behave and not say it....but yeah.
goldstar
Senior Member
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
IMHO, just because there are no Code sections that say you have to GFCI protect the circuit doesn't mean you shouldn't. Here the Code doesn't require you to GFCI protect it.
Yet, when you get down to this Code section for gas fired heaters it does :
It doesn't make sense to me. From a standpoint of safety - I would GFCI protect it
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
If not a permanently installed pool I think 680.32 requires GFCI protection.
Permanently installed pool - GFCI not necessarily required, but probably still a good idea. It must still be connected to the equipotential bonding system. Doing that ensures it remains at same potential as the rest of pool equipment when a fault occurs.
Permanently installed pool - GFCI not necessarily required, but probably still a good idea. It must still be connected to the equipotential bonding system. Doing that ensures it remains at same potential as the rest of pool equipment when a fault occurs.
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
There simply is no req. for gfci on pool electric heater and the gas fired is only required in some cases. This is new to the 2017
goldstar
Senior Member
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
OK, but stop and think about the logic of this - if you're mandated to GFCI protect a gas fired heater why wouldn't you also be mandated to GFCI protect an electric heater ? Is it something the CMP's just missed ? With respect to 680.28 in what cases would you not be required to GFCI protect a gas fired heater ?
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
If they don't operate above the low voltage contact limit.
- Location
- Placerville, CA, USA
- Occupation
- Retired PV System Designer
My first guess is that the "normal" leakage current, including capacitive current, of a typical electric submerged element heater is high enough to cause nuisance tripping of a GFCI?
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
We use them in hot tubs all the time and GFCI protect those. Most common cause of hot tub GFCI tripping from my experience is from faulted heating elements.
Still as I mentioned earlier in a permanent pool the thing still needs to be bonded to equipotential bonding system. Whether or not GFCI is used, that bonding is what provides the most direct protection to pool users. If the heater housing becomes energized, the entire EPB system raises to the same level.
ramsy
NoFixNoPay Electric
- Location
- LA basin, CA
- Occupation
- Service Electrician 2020 NEC
As with most new NFPA code, application of 680.28 is ambiguous in the field.
The ambiguity bomb of 2017 NEC 680.28 is, "operating at voltages above the low-voltage contact limit"
1) Hot water circulated by electric pumps operating > 100vac need GFCI protection. - OK.
2) Gas heaters operate fuels/ignition/temperatures using low-voltage controls, so no GFCI needed for 24vac. - OK.
3) Low-voltage contacts operate by transformer. - Must xformer primary >100vac be on GFCI? - Application is ambiguous in the field.
a) The ambiguous term "personnel" does not clarify, since it could be maintenance persons, pool users, or both.
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
Most transformers for pool equipment are specially designed so that there can be no contact between the line side and the load side.
ramsy
NoFixNoPay Electric
- Location
- LA basin, CA
- Occupation
- Service Electrician 2020 NEC
Exactly, so why interpret this code to require GFCI's on line-side of transformers?
Unless all equipment enclosures, j-boxes containing line voltages, or xfmr failures in closed position, must be anticipated?
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