jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
I disagree.
GFCI for refrigerator
- Thread starter JDB3
- Start date
- Status
I disagree.
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
Care to expound on that sentiment? I tend to think I've presented you with an open and shut case.
Jim W in Tampa
Senior Member
- Location
- Tampa Florida
Yes but the garage has a door and makes it a cabinet.
put a door on this sapace under the counter and we have just that a cabinet.
This is an open wall space that just simply is not as tall as most walls.
I see no exceptions to not call it a wall. If it was half wall or knee wall would you let it pass ?
What i see the space as is a small space with the eqivalant of a shelf over it. Likely to be used NO but NEC does not say usable.
Customer/ owner might say it is for future DW but fact is at time of inspection it has none.
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
Why can I have a SABC for the dining room and not the range? Silly to run a single circuit but why not?
Where does it says that the recpt behind the range is an "other outlet"? It just shows it coming off the counter, it does not say that it must.
If I put my range in my dining room, would that exempt that wall from meeting 210.52(A)(2)?
Nothing in the exception says anything about a wall.
I could put my range in the middle of the room and install a floor recpt for it. Odd installation but compliant. That would leave a 30 - 36" (typical) wall. How would you handle that area with no cabinets or appliances?
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
The code does NOT say this but I view the area from the countertop to the floor as NOT being wall space.
If I removed my cabinet doors you would make me install recpts in the wall?
I couldn't care less about the space ABOVE the c'top..... I'm addressing the space BELOW the c'top.
Why is it NOT wall space because it's below the c'top?
I will ask again: Where in the Code is a wall below a c'top not considered wall space?
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
Where there is a cabinet.
Where there is an appliance.
It is not in the code. It is understood.
The code does not require or exempt the wall under a counter from (A)(2).
In otherwords the code is silent.
"Understood"? By who?
OK, let's try this angle.... where, in 210.52(A)(2) does it address countertops?
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
Please spare me from reading this entire thread. I am not sure what we are arguing. Are we saying that the open space that has no countertop but is 2' wide ( a very unlikely scenario here ) does or doesn't need a recep. In my opinion, one is need somewhere in the space and no higher then the accepted wall outlets (5"6"). If there is a counter going across the top then the spacing could be for that of countertops and none is req. below.
Is that what this is about? This range talk has me confused.
Is that what this is about? This range talk has me confused.
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
It does not. Just the wall space between them.
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
Below a countertop? No.
Between countertops? Yes.
To the left or right of a countertop? Yes.
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
Because the NEC does not address open areas below the countertop. Only above the top.
IMHO if they believed that outlets were needed below a countertop they would have addressed that subject.
Jim W in Tampa
Senior Member
- Location
- Tampa Florida
We can not possably go along with it is UNDERSTOOD
The code did cover this space and points it out as along the floor. You have 2 feet of wall and only thing that exempts it is if the space is broken up by something such as fireplace, appliance etc. Yes common sence would say look at blue print and if says DW then fine on rough inspection. But on final we either need a wired in DW , cabinet door, or a receptacle.
Without anything there I simply have wall that is 2 feet and clearly calls for an outlet.
Actually ran into this once with a builder that was creating a duplex where not permitted. We called it a mother in law apartment and that was indeed its intent and final use. It had full bath,bedroom,living room and a room called wet bar. He took it to the max we could push it without calling it a kitchen as that would create duplex. Nice cabinets ,counter tops ,full sink,DW,disposal and we left a space 30 inches wide between 2 bottom cabinets and if that was not pushing it too far we installed a microwave under a top cabinet over this space. Yes am sure the inspector knowed a range would arrive after the CO. Being i had receptacles spaced as i did for counters I met code for having that 30 inches of wall served by receptacles.
So given that space we see here in picture #2 in my opinion needs a receptacle.
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
Where is a door required? That area is for my recycling. Again let me remove all my cabinet doors. What then? Do my cabinets require a back?
What if I laid plywood on the floor and called it a rolling shelf?
I can not justify that. I believe the NEC is silent on this space so I could not require an outlet.
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
Because that is what the code says.
Right where I told you: 210.52(B)(2) exception 2.
210.52(B)(2) says that it cannot, not that it must.
How does any of this obfuscation have any bearing whatsoever on our discussion? :roll:
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
Mike says that wall spaces behind appliances require wall receptacles as required in 210.52(A).
We are providing a plethora of reasons why this view is in error, but to little avail.
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
Can I have a copy of your code book?
Mine says that the range (gas) can be suppied from the countertop.
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
Not behind appliances per se.
210.52(C)(1) shows exceptions.
What I am saying is appliances, free standing, do not exempt any wall space from 210.52 requirements.
You are saying the the appliance changes wall space requirements.
Countertops are the only thing that I can find that changes wall space requirements in a kitchen.
- Status