GFCI from a GFCI?

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curious george

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A general contractor, trying to save a buck by not using an electrician, installed a new GFCI receptacle in the back yard. He ran the line side wire from this new receptacle back to the interior garage GFCI, attaching it to the load side of the interior GFCI receptacle.

When you test the outside GFCI, it also trips the interior garage GFCI.

He says he does not have to fix it. He wants a code section quoted to him.

I checked under article 110, general workmanship, and I also checked under article 210-8 for Ground fault, and article 300 for general wiring methods. (all from the 2001 California electrical code, which is based on the 1999 NEC.) No luck.

Any help in finding the correct code sectionlisting this as a violation would be appreciated.
 
Re: GFCI from a GFCI?

It is not a NEC violation.

It is wasteful as he could simply eliminate the second GFCI and install a standard receptacle.
 
Re: GFCI from a GFCI?

Tell him he wasted his money by not "wasting" money on an electrician. That will make him feel properly put down. But I agree with Bob; it's not a violation.
 
Re: GFCI from a GFCI?

It should only trip both devices if you are using a plug in tester. The test button as the downstream device should not trip the upstream device. I see no code violations.
Don
 
Re: GFCI from a GFCI?

It is a bad design choice, IMO.

He could take it from the LINE side of the 1st GFCI and it would solve the dual tripping problem.
 
Re: GFCI from a GFCI?

When you test the outside GFCI, it also trips the interior garage GFCI.

He says he does not have to fix it. He wants a code section quoted to him.
Click to expand...
Ok, tell the GC to leave it like it is what's the problem. Tell him to quit wasting your time :eek: !
 
Re: GFCI from a GFCI?

All electrical devices are to follow the manufacturers recommendations and instructions when installed. What does the GFCI manufacturer say about this type of installation???
 
Re: GFCI from a GFCI?

Manufacturers do not always cover every conceivable installation.

Why would you think there be any type of violation? Just because you would not do it?

The test button of a plug-in GFCI inserts a small resistance between the line and ground connections, so of course the upstream device would also see the test and should be expected to trip. This connection is why a plug-in tester does not work on ungrounded circuits. The built-in test button inserts the resistance between the line and the neutral so the upstream device would not see this type of test.
 
Re: GFCI from a GFCI?

No big deal. I have done this a couple of times and the world is still spinning.
 
Re: GFCI from a GFCI?

Originally posted by electricmanscott:
[QB] No big deal. I have done this a couple of times and the world is still spinning.
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I did too. I fed one of those new fangled AC disconnects (with the GFCI receptacle in them) from a circuit that was allready GFCI protected.

As soon as I finished, the sky fell and knocked me right to the ground. :eek:
 
Re: GFCI from a GFCI?

Originally posted by don_resqcapt19:
It should only trip both devices if you are using a plug in tester. The test button as the downstream device should not trip the upstream device. I see no code violations.
Don
Click to expand...
I've been told by a sales rep that the test button only tests the unlatching of the contacts. But I always thought the test button actually connected a resistor from one line to ground. that causes a current imballance which is detected by the sensor, and trips the unit. In other words, the test button actually causes a small ground fault.

If the sales rep is right, then you are right Don. If what I thought is right, then it should also trip the upstream device.

I think we need Physis to saw one of these in half and find out exactly how the test buttons work. (Unless someone else knows the answer).

Steve
 
Re: GFCI from a GFCI?

The only recognized test method by UL is the "test button". It cannot create a fault to ground or it would not work on ungrounded circuits.
The way test buttons usually work is to insert a small resistor line to neutral that "bypasses" the sensing circuitry for the neutral. This is why the neutral pigtail is required for GFCI breakers.

[ February 10, 2006, 11:10 AM: Message edited by: jim dungar ]
 
Re: GFCI from a GFCI?

Jim:

That makes sense. Then you are right, and only one receptacle should trip.

If both outlets trip when the test button is pushed, I'm thinking the Ground and Neutral have to be reversed.

I'm sure you can cite a violtion for that.

Steve
 
Re: GFCI from a GFCI?

Steve,
I've been told by a sales rep that the test button only tests the unlatching of the contacts.
Click to expand...
I too have been told that the button is not really a test of the GFCI, only of the mechanical functions. The button does work by connecting a resistor between the hot on the line side of the current sensor and the grounded conductor on the load side of the sensor creating an imbalance that opens the contacts. The tech person that I talked to said that you can't call it a GFCI test because the resistor is sized to draw more than 6 mA.
Don
 
Re: GFCI from a GFCI?

Don, Why is 8 to 10 ma 'not a test'? :confused:

What value would you consider a test?

How much closer can you get to the required trip level?
 
Re: GFCI from a GFCI?

Bob,
This is not my statement. It was from a senior tech at Leviton. He said it can't be called a test because the current is outside of the required range. Any current outside of the 4 to 6 mA GFCI trip requirement cannot not be called a test according to him.
Don
 
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