trappy
Member
- Location
- New Jersey
can a GFCI replace old work receptacle with no ground wire in bath room.
GFCI in bath
- Thread starter trappy
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highkvoltage
Senior Member
Re: GFCI in bath
The simple answer is yes, but local code may state different. Personally I would run a #12 if 20 amp or #14 if a 15 amp wire to the cold water line and provide a grounding path. Be careful that there are not any pastic lines though.
The simple answer is yes, but local code may state different. Personally I would run a #12 if 20 amp or #14 if a 15 amp wire to the cold water line and provide a grounding path. Be careful that there are not any pastic lines though.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: GFCI in bath
If you want to run a separate equipment grounding conductor it has only a few places it can go and most of those will be at the panel.
(1)Any accessible point on the grounding electrode system as described in 250.50
Yes number 1 includes a water line but it would have to be within 5' of the point of entrance.
(2)Any accessible point on the grounding electrode conductor
(3)The equipment grounding terminal bar within the enclosure where the branch circuit for the receptacle or branch circuit originates
(4)For grounded systems, the grounded service conductor within the service equipment enclosure.
250.130(C)
You can not run a ground wire to the closest water pipe.
Bob
Highvoltage what you have recommended is a NEC violation and I do not think that is a good idea.
If you want to run a separate equipment grounding conductor it has only a few places it can go and most of those will be at the panel.
(1)Any accessible point on the grounding electrode system as described in 250.50
Yes number 1 includes a water line but it would have to be within 5' of the point of entrance.
(2)Any accessible point on the grounding electrode conductor
(3)The equipment grounding terminal bar within the enclosure where the branch circuit for the receptacle or branch circuit originates
(4)For grounded systems, the grounded service conductor within the service equipment enclosure.
250.130(C)
You can not run a ground wire to the closest water pipe.
Bob
bphgravity
Senior Member
- Location
- Florida
Re: GFCI in bath
You may want to review 406.3(D)(3) of the NEC for all allowable options.
You may want to review 406.3(D)(3) of the NEC for all allowable options.
trappy
Member
- Location
- New Jersey
Re: GFCI in bath
Thanks to all, I did find the rule in 2002 code. 406.3(D). I was using my 1999 book.
Thanks to all, I did find the rule in 2002 code. 406.3(D). I was using my 1999 book.
highkvoltage
Senior Member
Re: GFCI in bath
iwire. The local AHJ allowed me to bond to the water line in a remodel job just a few months ago. It was a second floor bathroom. I used 12 thhn and it was for the grounding conductor. I could have fished a new line but it would have been very difficult.I also ran into this with a slab house about 2 years ago and the AHJ allowed it then also.
iwire. The local AHJ allowed me to bond to the water line in a remodel job just a few months ago. It was a second floor bathroom. I used 12 thhn and it was for the grounding conductor. I could have fished a new line but it would have been very difficult.I also ran into this with a slab house about 2 years ago and the AHJ allowed it then also.
Re: GFCI in bath
highkvoltage, If you are using individual or local experiences that are not within the NEC, you should make it clear when posting that this is the case.
What your local AHJ allows may or may not be a good thing for others.
Roger
highkvoltage, If you are using individual or local experiences that are not within the NEC, you should make it clear when posting that this is the case.
What your local AHJ allows may or may not be a good thing for others.
Roger
highkvoltage
Senior Member
Re: GFCI in bath
iwire. Some article referenced to has to do with the grounding electrode system. The reference to the 5' rule. We were discussing old work. If we had to all EGC's back to the panel why would you be allowed to jumper the water heater, softner, ect. Most rely on what the AHJ allows in the area you live in. Since the GFCI really doesn't need a EGC to function properly, even though few of us would install one without it, there are some places you would have to. If I have to install a GFCI where only 2 wires (hot and neutral) were availiable because the wiring was installed many years ago I would install a equipment ground as I suggested. Sometimes you can not apply the newest code to old work and when this occurs I just call the AHJ and proceed from there.
iwire. Some article referenced to has to do with the grounding electrode system. The reference to the 5' rule. We were discussing old work. If we had to all EGC's back to the panel why would you be allowed to jumper the water heater, softner, ect. Most rely on what the AHJ allows in the area you live in. Since the GFCI really doesn't need a EGC to function properly, even though few of us would install one without it, there are some places you would have to. If I have to install a GFCI where only 2 wires (hot and neutral) were availiable because the wiring was installed many years ago I would install a equipment ground as I suggested. Sometimes you can not apply the newest code to old work and when this occurs I just call the AHJ and proceed from there.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: GFCI in bath
The code happens to give some options for replacing 2 wire outlets you do not have to add a grounding conductor and if you chose to add a grounding conductor it can not be to the closest water pipe.
Here is the code section that spells this out.
The code is not retroactive so what is there when you get there is fine, but anything you add must meet todays code.
Maybe your AHJ will allow this, I know the ones I deal with would not.
[ April 22, 2004, 03:29 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]
Highvoltage. What you describe is a violation.
The code happens to give some options for replacing 2 wire outlets you do not have to add a grounding conductor and if you chose to add a grounding conductor it can not be to the closest water pipe.
Here is the code section that spells this out.
I am not saying you have to, but the ground wire you are saying to add is new work.
The code is not retroactive so what is there when you get there is fine, but anything you add must meet todays code.
Maybe your AHJ will allow this, I know the ones I deal with would not.
[ April 22, 2004, 03:29 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]
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