GFCI in indoor archery range

[102 Inspector]

Given a pole type building in which 25% is concrete floor with the remaining being exposed earth, are there any requirments that general purpose receptacles be GFCI. I find nothing that addresses it under Article 210.8(b) of 2008 Edition of NEC. Other than a good reccomendation, are there any other areas in the code that might require GFCI protection? The contractor has agreed that protection is a good thing, but I would like to have any available code references if needed. Calling this area "outdoors" would definitely be strtching it since it is completely under roof in a moderately conditioned space. Thank you

 

[jusme123]

...what is a 'moderately conditioned space'?

 

[renosteinke]

It's neither outdoors, nor in any space (like a garage) where GFCI's are mandated. No GFCI requirement. Might be nice, but not required.

 

[jusme123]

It's neither outdoors, nor in any space (like a garage) where GFCI's are mandated. No GFCI requirement. Might be nice, but not required.

if the structure is just a roof, its outdoors, and requires GFI protection.

 

[cowboyjwc]

if the structure is just a roof, its outdoors, and requires GFI protection.

That was my thought as well.

 

[102 Inspector]

The structure is enclosed with walls and will have small ceiling mounted unit heaters to take the chill off. This is in N/E Indiana and it gets quite cold some days. With the wall enclosing the space, this is no longer outdoors, although I would agree without walls, I would have no problem requiring GFCI. The perimeter enclosure will provide protection so that rain runoff will not enter the building and the only moisture should be natural ground moisture permeating up. The concrete slab will be the shooting area to the targets located at the other end of the building which will be the exposed earth. There are no plans for any equipment in the earth area other than possible hand tools when changing out the targets. I could argue the requirement for protecting the person using the hand tools and the owner is okay with that. I was looking for something more soild to say they are required in this application. Thanks again

 

[cowboyjwc]

The structure is enclosed with walls and will have small ceiling mounted unit heaters to take the chill off. This is in N/E Indiana and it gets quite cold some days. With the wall enclosing the space, this is no longer outdoors, although I would agree without walls, I would have no problem requiring GFCI. The perimeter enclosure will provide protection so that rain runoff will not enter the building and the only moisture should be natural ground moisture permeating up. The concrete slab will be the shooting area to the targets located at the other end of the building which will be the exposed earth. There are no plans for any equipment in the earth area other than possible hand tools when changing out the targets. I could argue the requirement for protecting the person using the hand tools and the owner is okay with that. I was looking for something more soild to say they are required in this application. Thanks again

I don't think there is anything more solid, so I think you're on the right track. You can't require them, but if the owner is willing I would probably suggest that he install them, If the one end is dirt if it rains you are going to get some water infiltration into the dirt inside, I would think.

 

[kwired]

I don't think there is anything more solid, so I think you're on the right track. You can't require them, but if the owner is willing I would probably suggest that he install them, If the one end is dirt if it rains you are going to get some water infiltration into the dirt inside, I would think.

If it is well designed, the landscape slopes away from the building and there should be no significant water infiltration.

Is this considered outdoors or not, I don't really know. I myself am likely to install GFCI whether required or not. However I am leaning toward not required though.

Dirt vs concrete does not define whether or not this is considered outdoors either IMO. We have both dirt and concrete in areas that are indeed unquestionably outdoors.

 

[cowboyjwc]

If it is well designed, the landscape slopes away from the building and there should be no significant water infiltration.

Is this considered outdoors or not, I don't really know. I myself am likely to install GFCI whether required or not. However I am leaning toward not required though.

Dirt vs concrete does not define whether or not this is considered outdoors either IMO. We have both dirt and concrete in areas that are indeed unquestionably outdoors.

And there's the $1M question.

 

[451F]

Require a GFI?

Require a GFI?

Having been shocked unconscious as a child, and understanding that the intent of the Code is to protect, and knowing the litigious nature of our society, I would recommend a GFI. Since I don't understand the laws involved, I cannot say that you should require a GFI.

I was standing barefoot on a concrete floor and touched an antennia of an antique FM radio which was plugged in. I awoke cold, brused, and scared some time later. I have no idea how long I was unconscious. The event spurred an interest in electrical safety which has never ended. It also resulted in my installing a polarized plug on the radio.

Each year about 3,000 people are treated in hospital emergency rooms for injuries associated with electricity.
From:http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_electricians_die_each_year_from_electric_shock_on_the_job

 

[petersonra]

i suspect it is a "good" idea, but it does not appear to be mandated by the code.

 

[kwired]

And there's the $1M question.

I guess I am trying to say that I don't see the fact that water does/can enter being that much of a factor, as the fact that the dirt or the concrete are grounded, add some water and they do have even higher conductivity.

GFCI's are required in unfinished basements in dwellings, or in garages not because these spaces are necessarily wet, they are just grounded surfaces. In dwellings the chance of someone using electric equipment while standing barefoot on the concrete is probably much higher risk than someone using electric equipment while barefoot on the shooting range.

I'm not saying GFCI is a must here, I also don't think it hurts to put a GFCI in almost any location if that is desired either. But I also don't think this is automatically an outdoor location.

If I have a garage and leave the overhead door open most of the time does that make the interior of the garage an outdoor location?

 

[cowboyjwc]

I guess I am trying to say that I don't see the fact that water does/can enter being that much of a factor, as the fact that the dirt or the concrete are grounded, add some water and they do have even higher conductivity.

GFCI's are required in unfinished basements in dwellings, or in garages not because these spaces are necessarily wet, they are just grounded surfaces. In dwellings the chance of someone using electric equipment while standing barefoot on the concrete is probably much higher risk than someone using electric equipment while barefoot on the shooting range.

I'm not saying GFCI is a must here, I also don't think it hurts to put a GFCI in almost any location if that is desired either. But I also don't think this is automatically an outdoor location.

If I have a garage and leave the overhead door open most of the time does that make the interior of the garage an outdoor location?

Oh I wasn't really arguing with you, or even disagreeing with you, just more of a comment. My guess would be is that volunteers from the club are building this structure and I think that's enough said about that. I'm not even starting to suggest that a GFCI is required because I know it isn't. I said the other day about a post, that just because it's ugly doesn't mean it's not to code. So just because it's not required, doesn't mean it's a bad idea.

 

[jumper]

I said the other day about a post, that just because it's ugly doesn't mean it's not to code. So just because it's not required, doesn't mean it's a bad idea.

:thumbsup:

 

[norcal]

If my memory serves me correctly I read after they were 1st required, that one reason that GFCI protection in garages was required was that outdoor power tools were plugged into the garage receptacles, that being said, GFCI's are cheap, reliable, & work, it never hurts to use them in a "gray area" where there is no clear requirement install them.

 

[kwired]

If my memory serves me correctly I read after they were 1st required, that one reason that GFCI protection in garages was required was that outdoor power tools were plugged into the garage receptacles, that being said, GFCI's are cheap, reliable, & work, it never hurts to use them in a "gray area" where there is no clear requirement install them.

I agree with you, but where do you draw the line if you are the AHJ, you can not make someone put one in if it is not required.

 

[norcal]

I agree with you, but where do you draw the line if you are the AHJ, you can not make someone put one in if it is not required.

Agreed, all they can do is suggest it, and I do not mean a "offer you cannot refuse" type of suggestion either.