GFCI in Kitchens

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Bob,

All the required GFI locations you cited are "readily accessable" locations and I agree with you. However, what I believe Eric was inferring was that receptacles for fixed equipment locations such as a diswasher under a counter or a microwave (probably located above a range) are not considered readily accesable and thus do not require GFI protection.

Eric,

I don't agree with all the locations you cited as not requiring GFI protection. First of all you'll have to go a long way to convince me that a refrigerator belongs in a garage. You wouldn't park your car in the kitchen would you ? (unless, of course, your wife made a left turn through the dining room after coming home from a night out with the girls !!!) A refrigerator is not a "fixed in place" type of appliance and can be readily re-located inside the garage. So, that receptacle would require GFI protection. If you have to put up a ladder to reach the garage door opener - it is not readily accessable. If you don't - it is and would require GFI protection. If washers and/or dryers are located within 5' of a slop sink they are required to have GFI protection.

Remember, we're out there trying to protect "Joe Homeowner" to the best of our abilities with the aid of the NEC. As I'm sure you know, people will do strange things to bring electricity to areas they want to. Stapling a lamp cord type extension cord from that garage refrigerator receptacle to power up Xmas lights is not uncommon in these parts.

Phil,
Gold Star Electric,
New Jersey
 
goldstar said:
Bob,

All the required GFI locations you cited are "readily accessible" locations and I agree with you. However, what I believe Eric was inferring was that receptacles for fixed equipment locations such as a diswasher under a counter or a microwave (probably located above a range) are not considered readily accesable and thus do not require GFI protection.
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Morning Phil.

First off in dwelling unit kitchens only the outlets that serve the counter top must be GFCI.

However again I point out that the only two locations in the GFCI requirements use the words "readily accessible" are in dwelling unit garages and basements.

If we install an outdoor receptacle that is not readily accessible it still must be GFCI protected (unless it feeds ice melting equipment.

If we install a 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacle in a crawl space for a sump pump it MUST be GFCI protected.

There are no exceptions to this at all.

In non dwelling kitchens there are no exceptions at all.

All 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles in non-dwelling kitchens must be GFCI protected no matter that they may be single outlets or that they are not accessible.

Refrigerators are now often supplied by GFCIs and more will be in the future.
 
NEC is a min.. If your customer wants and can afford the best then i suggest arc fault breakers for all 15 and 20 amp outlets as well as a gfci receptacle at every outlet.Put any other loads on gfci breakers.Just get ready for the bill.Leave me a signed check made out to me on the kitchen counter and i will be over to fix it.Should be under $5,000
 
goldstar said:
First of all you'll have to go a long way to convince me that a refrigerator belongs in a garage.
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Would it help convince you if I told you I have a fridge in the garage? If it were not there, then where would I keep all the beer? :shock: I might say you'll have to go a long way to convince me that a car belongs in a garage. :lol: :lol:
 
charlie b said:
goldstar said:
First of all you'll have to go a long way to convince me that a refrigerator belongs in a garage.
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Would it help convince you if I told you I have a fridge in the garage? If it were not there, then where would I keep all the beer? :shock: I might say you'll have to go a long way to convince me that a car belongs in a garage. :lol: :lol:
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While you could no doubt convince me that the car belongs in the garage, that would require convincing my wife that the motorcycles belong in the laundry room. :lol:
I know from past experience that argument falls on deaf ears. :cry:

(And the resulting counter-argument is likely to make you wish you were deaf.) :D :D
 
Some of my customers (commercial) don't like the idea that their frig. is on a GFCI circuit because it could cause food to go bad if they didn't know it tripped. I told them that it's the code and food doesn't compare with a persons life. I did tell them that I could wire up the circuit so if it did trip that it would give them an alarm letting them know. They thought that it was a good idea.
Jim
 
It could and should be set up with an automatic dialer.They can't get around the code without removing it and that puts them at an even higher risk.All part of doing buisness.If the food at risk is into the thousands then they need a system to alert them.In time we will see the requirments in a home grow higher.
 
Ok, i'm back. I wrote a rather lengthy reply to the responses but then a lightning storm came, the computer went down, and the response was lost. Sigh...

So, what i said about equipment was once true but is true no longer. One thing we can be certain of, the requirements for GFCIs will keep expanding.
There were some electrocutions in boathouses and so now the lifts are required to be GFCI protected. (if fed from a 120V, 15 or 20 Amp circuit).
I totally forgot about the crawlspaces, but then again, we don't have crawlspaces on the Gulf Coast of Texas (at least where i live). The homes here that are built up off the ground you could still ride under them while sitting on your horse. No crawling here.

Thanks for the responses. What a great forum.

And now, i'm going to crawl back into the hole from whence i came...

Eric
 
Bob: What will they think of next? :)

eric stromberg said:
Ok, i'm back. I wrote a rather lengthy reply to the responses but then a lightning storm came, the computer went down, and the response was lost. Sigh...
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Doesn't that just make you want to grab something big and heavy and...

And now, i'm going to crawl back into the hole from whence i came...
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Don't you dare. If you didn't speak up, it wouldn't have stayed with you, would it? Wear scars with pride! :)
 
eric stromberg said:
Ok, i'm back. I wrote a rather lengthy reply to the responses but then a lightning storm came, the computer went down, and the response was lost. Sigh...
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Been there myself for a different reason, it really stinks. :evil:

Eric sorry if I came on a bit strong with my post.

It is hard to keep up with the requirements, my response was based on the 2002 but things have changed again for 2005.

As George said, welcome to the forum.

We are all mistaken here sometimes don't let it bother you in the least.
 
If it were not there, then where would I keep all the beer?
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Charlie, I have a friend just like you. He acquired an old refer and gutted all the shelves out of the inside, keeps a 1/2 keg inside the refer section, ran the tap handle through the door and keeps frosted mugs in the freezer section !!! His $30K car stays in the driveway. Go figure !!!
 
Bob,

Your points are well taken but a couple of things I would like to clear up :

the words "readily accessible" are in dwelling unit garages and basements.
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If these words are only used in these locations why wouldn't they apply to crawl spaces also ? If this were a sewer ejector pump would you still be required to have GFI protection ? If so, you may follow the letter of the code in your house but I can assure you that in my house the only thing that will stop that sewerage from flowing is a true power failure.

If we install an outdoor receptacle that is not readily accessible it still must be GFCI protected (unless it feeds ice melting equipment.
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This is correct if the receptacle is located up under an eave. However, if it is located at some point on the residence where someone can readily unplug the cord it must be GFI protected.

All 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles in non-dwelling kitchens must be GFCI protected no matter that they may be single outlets or that they are not accessible.

Refrigerators are now often supplied by GFCIs and more will be in the future
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I have a problem with this. I know the Code is the Code is the Code and we all have to follow it, but when it comes to perishable items in a refer in a restaurant and the restaurant can't serve food because the GFI tripped now I think you have a greater problem than not following the Code to the letter. If it were my restaurant and I couldn't get my electrician to change out the GFI receptacle because of Code violations, I'd do it myself. And that's where the problems really begin.

Regards,

Phil
 
goldstar said:
Refrigerators are now often supplied by GFCIs and more will be in the future
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I have a problem with this. I know the Code is the Code is the Code and we all have to follow it, but when it comes to perishable items in a refer in a restaurant and the restaurant can't serve food because the GFI tripped now I think you have a greater problem than not following the Code to the letter. If it were my restaurant and I couldn't get my electrician to change out the GFI receptacle because of Code violations, I'd do it myself. And that's where the problems really begin.
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Phil, the NFPA places a greater value on life than food. The new requirement was brought on by death(s) of employee(s) in restaurants touching refrigerators. GFCI protection was a reasonable reaction to the problem.

I'd have to do a search to bring up prior discussions on this. I forget the exact circumstances that brought it on, but I know it was that flavor of a code change. The change was not a "logic-oriented" one, it was motivated by a body count.

Now, technology is closing the gap even further by the advent of these new devices that call in when the fridge senses trouble. That effectively slams the door on any restauranteur to blame the electrician and the inspector for his negligence in not protecting his own investment.

Awhile back, Ryan had this exact issue fly in his face, he required GFCI protection per code, it tripped, and the restaurant sued his office. The building department prevailed. Click here for that thread.
 
If a refrigerator trips the GFCI it is because it is "leaking voltage". This is a dangerous situation and the GFCI is working to save a life. The NEC is concerned with safety, not the economics of losing a refrigerator full of food. If the food is a concern, there are monitors that can be installed to alert you that the refrigerator is too warm, which may be due to things other than a GFCI tripping. I am concerned that someone would place the value of food above a human life. One good OSHA inspection would soon change your mind! If the code making panel had wanted to remove commercial refrigerators from GFCI protection, they could have done so in the 2005 code. Since this section was not changed it must be as they intended. An alternative would be to require that all refrigerators be boded to an equipment grounding conductor, but since many units just plug in, and many are still equipped with 2-wire cord ends, then GFCI is the next best protection. As electricians we need to be enforcing electrical safety, not trying to keep unsafe appliance in the workplace.
I will yield the soapbox to someone else.
 
George & Hask,

Points well taken. I guess I eat crow on this one. I would certainly not want to be the one who side-steps the NEC by installing a std receptacle in place of a GFI. You're both right, it would be a hell of a risk to take. I think the refer manufacturers should bear some of the burden to correct this problem though.

Regards,

Phil
 
goldstar said:
He . . . keeps a 1/2 keg inside the refer section, ran the tap handle through the door and keeps frosted mugs in the freezer section !!! His $30K car stays in the driveway. Go figure !!!
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And your point is??? Sounds great to me. I haven't been able to park a car in a garage for quite some time. :wink: 8) :lol:
 
As far fridges needing GFI protection, the reason it is required is because restaurants will "hose" down there kitchens at the end of the night. The units are unplugged and pulled away from the wall, so they can be cleaned behind them. The person who probably has wet hands plugs the unit back in. There was deaths because of this.
 
goldstar said:
I think the refer manufacturers should bear some of the burden to correct this problem though.
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I could not agree more Phil. 8)

I have read that the common reason refrigerators have tripped GFCIs has not been the compressor and fan motors.

It has to do with the heating elements used for the defrosting and anti-condensate heaters.

The elements are or where 'leaky' to ground and would be the source of the ground fault.

Supposedly this has been addressed and corrected.

In my experience motors in good condition run fine of GFCIs.

Think about construction sites or pool pumps.
 
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