Gfci on heat pump

S

stew

Senior Member
Location
federal way,washington
The information.i have gleaned from a manufactures electrical engineering dept say the only state requiring gfci on heat pumps is florida..and if the install has a permit the journeyman who install these pumps get an inspection passed with a gfci in the panel.inspectpr goes away and so does the gfci .they put a properly sized standard breaker based on mca and that stops the nuisance tripping associated with heat pumps.
Long story but I have aninstall on 2 large pumps 20k btu.47mca.a 50 would work but a 60 gives us roomier starting even tho these are inverter type pumps that soft start.got some wannabe interference from some of the board members of the organization that insist on gfci . Im gonna use some 30 mil tripping 60 amp gfcis because they insist. Only 250$ each.lol instead of 20 bucks.imho this is stupid is as stupid does. Bit the customer is always right eh?? Lol just don't call.me for this unattended load from 95 miles away if and when it trips.lol
away.lol
 
210.8(F) only applies to dwellings, and they put in an exception that it doesn't apply to HVAC equipment until september of this year, to give time for development of GFCI's that are more compatible with that equipment than what was available when they decided this equipment needed GFCI protection.

If this is a non dwelling it is not required at least in 2023 and prior codes. If you want GFPE protection on it there is nothing in NEC that would prohibit that.
 
I will wait til.i get them and see just what it says on the device. They may say gfci on the listing but may actually be gfpe. I think marinas have the 30 mil requirement for each service panel . Then std gfcis on 120 v outlets at the boat slip.
 
1. You said 60A, so 210.8(f) wouldn't apply as it only applies to ≤ 50A

2. 210.8(f) exception no.2 is part of NEC 2023, and no mention of it in the WAC. Where there is conflict between NEC and WAC, only then do you follow the WAC, otherwise NEC is to be followed. Thus, even if this was for ≤ 50A, you still don't need to GFCI protect it unless the installation instructions require it.


Rob G
Seattle
 
marmathsen said:
1. You said 60A, so 210.8(f) wouldn't apply as it only applies to ≤ 50A

2. 210.8(f) exception no.2 is part of NEC 2023, and no mention of it in the WAC. Where there is conflict between NEC and WAC, only then do you follow the WAC, otherwise NEC is to be followed. Thus, even if this was for ≤ 50A, you still don't need to GFCI protect it unless the installation instructions require it.


Rob G
Seattle
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Yes i know of that exception
The only problem is the wannabe customer who is not en electrician has taken incorrect advice. Neither the code nor the install instructions require it. However I guess the customer is always right eh?? NOT! However not picking this battle. When they arrive in they go. Lol
 
stew said:
Yes i know of that exception
The only problem is the wannabe customer who is not en electrician has taken incorrect advice. Neither the code nor the install instructions require it. However I guess the customer is always right eh?? NOT! However not picking this battle. When they arrive in they go. Lol
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Assuming you are the electrician (please update your profile) why would you let the customer tell you how to do your work? If you choose to install a GFCI to please them is the customer going to pay you for a service call every time it trips or expect you to come out for free?
 
The customer is allowed to exceed NEC requirements as long as they place their specifications on the back of a large enough check.

With that said, you might try to understand exactly what they are trying to accomplish, and then upsell a solution that will actually work.

For example the GFCI requirement (that is currently on hold) was intended to protect against a combination failure, the loss of an EGC combined with an insulation fault. So maybe sell your customer on redundant bonding.

Suitable GFCIs do not currently exist, so don't tell your customer you are installing a GFCI. Tell them exactly what you do end up installing.
 
stew said:
Yes i know of that exception
The only problem is the wannabe customer who is not en electrician has taken incorrect advice. Neither the code nor the install instructions require it. However I guess the customer is always right eh?? NOT! However not picking this battle. When they arrive in they go. Lol
Click to expand...
This customer is the president of the hoa at our property at colony surf on hood canal. Ive been doing a lot of electrical for clients up there for years. Had pur vacation place there for 44 years.was a board member for 12 years. This us kind of extended family for us. I cant always be there to ward off the wannabe electricians and volunteers that have installed all kinds of Circuits over the years. Mostly.my jobs at the clubhouse proper entail bringing things up .to code and fixing a ton of nasty crap
I have to be as diplomatic as possible in this particular case. They get way too involved and take bad advice. Even from a female union electrician with all of 12 years.6 of which were apprentice years. Hasn't really done much commercial work.now Al she does for the last few years is teach the code etc t apprentices at local 46.im sure she probably is a good teacher. Electrician with tons of experience for 50 years with every kind of electrical apparatus ???? NOPE. Walked in to the pool mechanical room where there are 2 400 amp trumble service disconnect and told them she would never even get close to those beautiful old switches without all of her protective gear. So much fun to diplomatically tell the president she's full of crap!!!
curt swartz said:
Assuming you are the electrician (please update your profile) why would you let the customer tell you how to do your work? If you choose to install a GFCI to please them is the customer going to pay you for a service call every time it trips or expect you to come out for free?
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They have been informed at 95 miles away that I will not come all the way up to reset the device.its a 30 mil circuit protection type gfci. Not needed but they insist.so they pay a big price for 2 60 amp devices they really don't need.lol I am.a master electrician with over 40 years in the trade in one way or another. Part owner of an electric motor rewind and repair facility for 18 years in the lat te 60s and up.grew up kinda repairing all kinds of apparatus.welding equipment was our specialty
Lincoln electric field service shop plus Miller Hobart Westinghouse ge yadayada yada.
 
winnie said:
The customer is allowed to exceed NEC requirements as long as they place their specifications on the back of a large enough check.
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Yeah just another job spec, part of the job, yes sir,
I'd rather have it be a GFPE breaker than someone watching over my back wanting IG receptacles.
I first started using 30mA GFPE breakers decades ago because of this kinda thing.
I have never seen one nuisance trip, they trip for a reason.
Some do say 30mA GFCI some say 30mA GFPE I think they are all the same.
I think GFPE is a newer term.
 
tortuga said:
I think GFPE is a newer term.
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30mA has never been GFCI, as the NEC and UL restrict that term to personnel protection of 5mA.

Some manufacturers started calling 30mA devices GFPE more than 30 years ago. But I know it was not universally used.
 
stew said:
The information.i have gleaned from a manufactures electrical engineering dept say the only state requiring gfci on heat pumps is florida.
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Were you able to get any info on if this was a state code, or a local amendment? Do you know what code cycle they are referring to?
 
jim dungar said:
30mA has never been GFCI, as the NEC and UL restrict that term to personnel protection of 5mA.

Some manufacturers started calling 30mA devices GFPE more than 30 years ago. But I know it was not universally used.
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Ahh thanks for the correction your right I was confusing GFPE with the old Class B 20mA GFCI's in UL 943 looks like it was in my 3rd edition of 943 dated 8/27/93, the NEC defines GFCI as a Class A device:
1775600067928.png
 
tortuga said:
I first started using 30mA GFPE breakers decades ago because of this kinda thing.
I have never seen one nuisance trip, they trip for a reason.
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Just curious what type of loads you use them for? There are very limited applications that require 30ma protection in the NEC. In my 43+ years in the trade I don't remember ever using one.
 
curt swartz said:
Just curious what type of loads you use them for? There are very limited applications that require 30ma protection in the NEC. In my 43+ years in the trade I don't remember ever using one.
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Yeah they are not common, other than the NEC required stuff like heat trace, it was customers that asked for whatever reason they wanted one, if it did not violate the NEC to have one then OK, they wanted them for equipment protection, most common on residential Sauna's,
One was contact lens manufacturing facility they had some expensive equipment for making contact lenses and thats what they wanted. Another was a small retail coffee chain back before the NEC changed on commercial kitchen stuff, they had a fancy Italian coffee machine they wanted 2-pole GFPE.
 
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