GFCI on outdoor sauna

D

dpb

Member
Location
Cleveland, Ohio
Occupation
Electrical contractor
Hey guys, just wanted to pick your brain on this. This will be my first outdoor sauna install.
So 210.8 (F) requires gfci protection on anything 150v to ground and 50a or less so that would include the sauna i am installing (40a required circuit).
The sauna, like all saunas seem to, says not to install gfci protection on it. It doesn't say anything about voiding the warrenty by using a gfci breaker but it says it will most likely trip the gfci.
Has anyone done one on a gfci outside and had success? Or should i tell them that it's not a good idea due to the gfci requirements.

thanks in advance!
 
curious to what you find because I have one I installed this summer that worked perfectly on a gfci 50a for the last 3 months and just started tripping constantly.
 
Well I contacted the support team for a different sauna company I have worked with to see if they had a solution. Turns out there is none.
So it seems the sauna kit companies advertise their products can be installed outdoors and I have to be the bearer of bad news warning the customer my legal installation may trip all the time.
The customer I was working with never got back to me so I'm assuming he found someone who will skirt around the rules, decided not to do it, or my price was more than he was willing to pay.
Let me know if you do find a solution. I would love to be able to work with these outdoors or in basements again
 
If memory serves me correctly, I believe someone posted a while back of a NEMA form that you could fill out and email along with your product specifications if they advise against the AFCI or GFCI requirements. NEMA will then make a determination if the equipment instructions are viable so that you don't have to provide the additional protection. I would go this route if I were thinking about going against NEC requirements. At least it would give you something in your corner should something happens with your installation.
 
Rick 0920 said:
If memory serves me correctly, I believe someone posted a while back of a NEMA form that you could fill out and email along with your product specifications if they advise against the AFCI or GFCI requirements. NEMA will then make a determination if the equipment instructions are viable so that you don't have to provide the additional protection. I would go this route if I were thinking about going against NEC requirements. At least it would give you something in your corner should something happens with your installation.
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How about a form to send to NFPA asking for the justification for GFCI protection on all these outdoor outlets? Some may have justification but they sort of lumped them all into the "because we can" category.
 
kwired said:
How about a form to send to NFPA asking for the justification for GFCI protection on all these outdoor outlets? Some may have justification but they sort of lumped them all into the "because we can" category.
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GFCI was added to these outlets because multiple children were electrocuted when playing around the outside of houses. Same with the new laundry room GFCI, kids were hiding behind electric dryers while playing hide and seek and getting killed. One kid was killed because a dog went behind a dryer, got electrocuted, and the kid tried to get the dog out, killing (or seriously injuring) the kid as well.



"On August 3, 2007, a 12-year-old child jumped over a chain link fence and landed on the adjacent AC condenser unit. The condenser had an electrical ground fault which caused the unit's metal housing to become electrified. The child was fatally electrocuted when he made contact simultaneously with both the condenser and the metal fence."
 
discmanspark said:
curious to what you find because I have one I installed this summer that worked perfectly on a gfci 50a for the last 3 months and just started tripping constantly.
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Typically, it's due to the capacitive couplings on the heating elements. High frequency GFCI might be the solution.
 
I am not as up on the code as I should be but would hardwiring it make any difference? it seemed like that was a work around for awhile.
 
However many successful installations
Secret?
Proper installation : suitable wiring method for wet location, wiring dry and tight, no loose neutral, no nick insulation
High quality equipment minimise inherent leakage current
 
Saunas designed in places like Sweden Norway or Finland are designed and installed with a Residual Current Device (RCD), a common international breaker that is in some cases faster than a UL 947 GFCI.
A RCD for example will trip at 30 mA within ~300 ms a UL 947 GFCI can take 560ms (~33 cycles) to trip at 30mA.
Manufacturers there dont test sauna's on a UL GFCI and are not required to so they put that disclaimer in there.
I'd say put them on a 30mA GFPE breaker;
In a typical 60hz US AC power system, I guess it takes around one cycle for a fault current to reach its peak value during a ground fault. And during that time a person is exposed to that full current.
The range where a UL GFCI takes longer than 400 ms to trip, between 5 mA and 40 mA, is called the ‘dead band,’ within this range the device is not providing effective protection.
So if you don't want to use a GFCI because of nuisance trips and its not required I'd use a 30ma GFPE breaker, its no GFCI or RCD but better than a regular breaker.
I have however seen GFCI's that were installed when not required and not recommended by the manufacturer work fine on Sauna's for decades.
 
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Proper baking of heater element use before gfci also successful
As atleast one manufacturer Saunacore not prohibition gfci use
 
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tjdilly said:
GFCI was added to these outlets because multiple children were electrocuted when playing around the outside of houses. Same with the new laundry room GFCI, kids were hiding behind electric dryers while playing hide and seek and getting killed. One kid was killed because a dog went behind a dryer, got electrocuted, and the kid tried to get the dog out, killing (or seriously injuring) the kid as well.



"On August 3, 2007, a 12-year-old child jumped over a chain link fence and landed on the adjacent AC condenser unit. The condenser had an electrical ground fault which caused the unit's metal housing to become electrified. The child was fatally electrocuted when he made contact simultaneously with both the condenser and the metal fence."
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The AC unit electrocution incident that was the primary justification also had a missing or compromised EGC. I have less issue with requiring GFCI protection when cord and plug is utilized as those EGC's are more easily compromised. A hard wired item other than art 680 applications shouldn't need to require GFCI protection. 50 plug EGC pins aren't easily missing compared to what is on 5-15 plugs and I don't necessarily agree they need GFCI either but makes more sense than a hard wired item.
 
kwired said:
The AC unit electrocution incident that was the primary justification also had a missing or compromised EGC. I have less issue with requiring GFCI protection when cord and plug is utilized as those EGC's are more easily compromised. A hard wired item other than art 680 applications shouldn't need to require GFCI protection. 50 plug EGC pins aren't easily missing compared to what is on 5-15 plugs and I don't necessarily agree they need GFCI either but makes more sense than a hard wired item.
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I personally don't disagree, was just providing the thought process behind the requirement. It's a fine line between the NEC requiring safe installations vs requiring provisions accounting for unsafe installations.
 
kwired said:
A hard wired item other than art 680 applications shouldn't need to require GFCI protection.
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After shooting trouble on a bunch of HVAC calls this summer, I find that metal flex and or metal conduit going up to roofs does not make a real reliable ground fault path long term.
I have a thread you all helped me with back in June basically the unit had a floating frame due to poor AL connections, and after encountering several more units with floating frames I think pulling a green wire is the best assurance. (It was not a real issue but threw me off why am I getting 60V phase to frame? If something had shorted to that frame it would be hot )
So I would say (not that anyone asked me or cares) make that exception to 210.8 GFI rules but say something to the effect of "hard wire equipment in normally dry locations is exempt and hard wire equipment in damp or wet locations with a copper wire type equipment ground shall be exempt from 210.8"
 
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