"GFCI PROTECTED" "NO GROUND" stickers?
- Thread starter sw_ross
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Coppersmith
Senior Member
- Location
- Tampa, FL, USA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
If it were me, I would just use the labelmaker I keep on the truck. I suppose I could also raid all the GFCI packages as well, I usually have at least a dozen GFCI's on the truck and each one has 3 or 4 of those labels.
I don't know if they do it anymore or not, but Leviton would send you those stickers for free if you requested them.
But the label maker idea is easier. Another one is printing out your own- just get some sticky printer paper.
FionaZuppa
Senior Member
- Location
- AZ
- Occupation
- Part Time Electrician (semi retired, old) - EE retired.
it would be better & safer to use a EGC barbed plastic pin blank to keep 3pin cap cords out by default. this invokes a clear physical warning that something is off when attempting to insert a 3pin cord.
anything done to a faceplate is technically just silly. a finepoint sharpie would be better than a sticker. and i dont even see the point of the "gfci protected" part. std new wire does not require such label. the thing with holes in it either is-or-is-not gfci protected, etc. they only recall what you "mumble" to them for the 1st ~20sec after you verbally tell them "these outlets here are gfci protected, and the trip-test/reset is over here"......
one of these should do the trick
anything done to a faceplate is technically just silly. a finepoint sharpie would be better than a sticker. and i dont even see the point of the "gfci protected" part. std new wire does not require such label. the thing with holes in it either is-or-is-not gfci protected, etc. they only recall what you "mumble" to them for the 1st ~20sec after you verbally tell them "these outlets here are gfci protected, and the trip-test/reset is over here"......
one of these should do the trick
mopowr steve
Senior Member
- Location
- NW Ohio
- Occupation
- Electrical contractor
Are those listed ground hole plugs?
JFletcher
Senior Member
- Location
- Williamsburg, VA
it would be better & safer to use a EGC barbed plastic pin blank to keep 3pin cap cords out by default. this invokes a clear physical warning that something is off when attempting to insert a 3pin cord.
anything done to a faceplate is technically just silly. a finepoint sharpie would be better than a sticker. and i dont even see the point of the "gfci protected" part. std new wire does not require such label. the thing with holes in it either is-or-is-not gfci protected, etc. they only recall what you "mumble" to them for the 1st ~20sec after you verbally tell them "these outlets here are gfci protected, and the trip-test/reset is over here"......
one of these should do the trick
Putting those in the ground slot? Really? Dumb idea. I know you're all averse to 3 prong receptacles (NEMA 5-15) having 2 wires to them (illegal save for the scenario the OP is doing) as its basically a 1-15 or whatever, BUT
If you jam plastic junk in the ground pin hole, the next times someone goes to stick a 3 prong plug in it, they will either buy a cheater or cut the ground pin off of the plug.
OP, I believe quite a few of those stickers come with GFCI receptacles, just buy a few for stock and use the extra labels that come with them. or if you wanna go really cheap, ask another EC for them - most times they get thrown out.
If a receptacle is 5-15, then it should be able to take all 120V 2 and 3 prong cords. and legally, you can plug in most things into a 3 pin receptacle that has two wires and GFCI protection.
electricguy61
Senior Member
I agree. Defeats the purpose of the code allowance for 3 wire receptacle on a 2 wire circuit.
Coppersmith
Senior Member
- Location
- Tampa, FL, USA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
There is no need to keep three pin plugs out. In fact, the whole point is to let them in. By adding a GFCI, the receptacles are made safe(r). GFCI's don't require a ground to operate.
Since you are also putting a sticker on that says "no equipment ground", putting on a sticker that says "GFCI protected" makes perfect sense. "There's no ground here, but we're protecting you another way, so don't worry too much". Also helps when the outlet stops working. Reminds them to look for a GFCI to reset.
mbrooke
Batteries Included
- Location
- United States
- Occupation
- Technician
it would be better & safer to use a EGC barbed plastic pin blank to keep 3pin cap cords out by default. this invokes a clear physical warning that something is off when attempting to insert a 3pin cord.
anything done to a faceplate is technically just silly. a finepoint sharpie would be better than a sticker. and i dont even see the point of the "gfci protected" part. std new wire does not require such label. the thing with holes in it either is-or-is-not gfci protected, etc. they only recall what you "mumble" to them for the 1st ~20sec after you verbally tell them "these outlets here are gfci protected, and the trip-test/reset is over here"......
one of these should do the trick
That defeats the whole point of using GFCIs as a means to plug in 3 wire appliances on two wire circuits.
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FionaZuppa
Senior Member
- Location
- AZ
- Occupation
- Part Time Electrician (semi retired, old) - EE retired.
hold up.
so the logic i have heard this far is:
1) allow 3pin cap cords in
2) the stickers tell people "no gnd, gfci enabled"
3) they'll break off the gnd pin
4) they'll buy a cheater
1 - so what, that gnd pin does nothing in this case
2 - stickers fall off, and, std GFI'd downstream recepts don't need stickers telling people "this thing is GFI'd", so why do you do it here?
3 - so what, the receptacles offers no gnd anyways. if having the gnd pin was any meaningful safety feature of the device then why do we allow it to be used in a recept that has no gnd ??! in reality, a nema 1 is probably better !
4 - so what, its exactly what they do when they plug a 3pin cap into a 3pin recept that has no egc
blocking the gnd hole is a physical warning that no gnd is there. what the user does from there is up to them.
i gave the molly as example. recepts should come with a gnd pin block, similar to the molly but with a solid face, and when inserted it sits very flush to (just under) the recept face, so that folks cannot attempt to pry it out. maybe use orange as the color as an indicator of "this recept has no ground".
so the logic i have heard this far is:
1) allow 3pin cap cords in
2) the stickers tell people "no gnd, gfci enabled"
3) they'll break off the gnd pin
4) they'll buy a cheater
1 - so what, that gnd pin does nothing in this case
2 - stickers fall off, and, std GFI'd downstream recepts don't need stickers telling people "this thing is GFI'd", so why do you do it here?
3 - so what, the receptacles offers no gnd anyways. if having the gnd pin was any meaningful safety feature of the device then why do we allow it to be used in a recept that has no gnd ??! in reality, a nema 1 is probably better !
4 - so what, its exactly what they do when they plug a 3pin cap into a 3pin recept that has no egc
blocking the gnd hole is a physical warning that no gnd is there. what the user does from there is up to them.
i gave the molly as example. recepts should come with a gnd pin block, similar to the molly but with a solid face, and when inserted it sits very flush to (just under) the recept face, so that folks cannot attempt to pry it out. maybe use orange as the color as an indicator of "this recept has no ground".
ask the question the other way. what is the point of the device having a 3pin cap cord ??? it was put there for a reason, so why then do you welcome it to be used in a recept that has no egc ??? Do you think any avg joe who bought a countertop device that has a 3pin cord has any idea what the sticker means? no is the answer. much safer to keep nema 1's on 2wire ckts, but install gfi ocpd !
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curt swartz
Electrical Contractor - San Jose, CA
- Location
- San Jose, CA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Just buy a handful (maybe 5) of GFCI receptacles for use on other projects later and take the stickers out of the boxes.
I noticed you didn't mention AFCI protection for the replacement receptacles.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
The users don't have a clue what the information on the label really means and IMO the label is only useful for the next electrician that may come along. Putting that label on there doesn't have much impact on safety because the user don't understand it. Adding the GFCI protection is the only good thing we have done with such an installation when it comes to improving safety to the user.
I agree with your responses to each of the four points above, also think the labels are pointless, and know that people have been breaking off EGC pins to make a plug work for an application since long before codes got stricter on the way these non grounding outlets are handled, that is part of why GFCI is somewhat a necessity IMO. It don't prevent ground faults from happening but still offers better protection to the user when one does happen.
If you block the ground pin hole - I'd bet most non electricians don't think hard at all about either finding a cheater or breaking the grounding pin off the cord - they have been doing it or seen it done for so long it they think it is the right thing to do.
FionaZuppa
Senior Member
- Location
- AZ
- Occupation
- Part Time Electrician (semi retired, old) - EE retired.
what does it matter. why not ask, are there any other items like it that prevent plugging something in, are those UL listed?
i agree with you, but the logic was that the installer would inform the user of what the stickers meant. in my view, better to plug the hole and inform the user "see this orange plug, its an indicator that this receptacle has no ground and will not accept a 3prong plug. but i did replace the breaker with a dual function one to protect you from shocks". from there, if they choose a cheater or break the pin off their cord, thats up to them.
in order of preference (in my view)
1) use nema 1's on 2wire ckts, install dual function breaker (or extend a 3wire gfci to nema 1's, etc)
2) install the nema 5, plug the gnd hole, install dual function breaker (or extend a 3wire gfci to nema 1's, etc)
3) do #2 but also inform user that if needed, use cheater on this recept, do not break off the gnd pin from cords
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kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
Lots of things, caulking, cement, drywall compound, glues or epoxies, are all ones that may be even easier and more permanent in nature. Seems silly to plug the hole to me even if there is no EGC present, users will find a way to plug in what they want to plug in as a general rule. Chances are the item will work without an EGC and they have a false sense of security that nothing is wrong with that because their plugged in item does operate.
mbrooke
Batteries Included
- Location
- United States
- Occupation
- Technician
This makes little sense because the user is already protected from shocks as you mentioned. How will a 3 wire appliance disable that? It wont.
JFletcher
Senior Member
- Location
- Williamsburg, VA
THAT receptacle may not have a ground, but others will. Cutting off the ground pin of an extension cord or appliance cord is stupid dangerous, and your reply is "so what"? :?:?:?
Say I'm running my rotohammer on a cord plugged into a grounded receptacle, and the ground pin is missing on the cord (in this case, broken from wear and tear). The motor faults to the frame/metal I'm holding onto. Since there is no fault path back to the source, the OCPD doesnt trip, the frame of the rotohammer sits energized at 120V, and I do the wicked chicken.
If the ground pin were there, hopefully the breaker would trip. If the receptacle were GFCI protected, I would get a zap, then it would trip. Both EGC and GFCI would be best to protect me (as would using an extension cord in good condition with the ground pin intact).
There's also the possibility that in cutting off the ground pin you cause other damage to the plug
I agree that those "GFCI protected/no equipment ground" stickers do zero in terms of protection.
As to why some eqpt has 3 prong plugs vs 2, I guess it's a matter of how it has to get listed and what it needs. Double insulated 120V tools never have a 3 wire cord; they dont need it. I cant answer why some things like metal lamps have 2 prong cords (when they seem to need 3) and my all-plastic monitor power supply has 3 prongs when 2 would do imo.
- Occupation
- Licensed Electrician
All that's really needed is a few ground rods. Wouldn't you agree?
Per an earlier thread, I think the OP intends to use DF (AFCI/GFCI) breakers instead of DFCI recs to comply.
Yeah, in effect this ridiculous idea creates another danger- If/when the mutilated equipment were to be removed from gfci and plugged into to a standard 5-15 w/an egc, there is now a potential hazard which would not exist had the egc pin not already been cutoff to fit into Fionas altered receptacle- until the altered plug is replaced, the important egc connection is lost.
This whole idea shouldn't even be considered- putting plastic inserts into 5-15 recs is a blatant violation of 110.3(B)- have any of the device manufacturers ever ok'd it?:happyno:
mbrooke
Batteries Included
- Location
- United States
- Occupation
- Technician
I think Canada at one point let you put goop into a 3 wire receptacle when replacing a 2 wire on a 2 wire circuit. But I forget the details. In this case there is no need since we want to use 3 wire appliances.
electricguy61
Senior Member
I keeping wondering, but now I'll do it out loud, so to speak:
Is FionaZuppa just somebody jerking the forum's chain for laughs?
I can't figure out another explanation for her "logic" :happysad: on her postings.
Is FionaZuppa just somebody jerking the forum's chain for laughs?
I can't figure out another explanation for her "logic" :happysad: on her postings.
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