"GFCI PROTECTED" "NO GROUND" stickers?

[FionaZuppa]

THAT receptacle may not have a ground, but others will. Cutting off the ground pin of an extension cord or appliance cord is stupid dangerous, and your reply is "so what"? :?:?:?

i am not following your logic. from your view the egc pin on the device is very very important, but then you provide a nema 5 w/o egc for this device to plug into? isnt the egc on the device very very important and should be used only on ckt's that have egc?

i never said breaking off the pin was a good idea, a cheater would be preferred.

i just cant follow the logic some have proposed. you want to allow a 3pin corded appliance to plug into a no egc nema 5? why? isnt the egc pin on that appliance there for a reason? if it wasnt needed they would have used nema 1 polarized plug, right? a 2pin plug is also less $$.

nema 1 = nema 5 w/ no egc

so your logic is what exactly?

 

[FionaZuppa]

NEC 110.3B ???
ok, does anyone read the instructions of the nema 5's you are installing? i cant seem to find any Leviton instructions that say "gnd/green/bare wire optional".

I keeping wondering, but now I'll do it out loud, so to speak:

Is FionaZuppa just somebody jerking the forum's chain for laughs?

I can't figure out another explanation for her "logic" :happysad: on her postings.

care to explain the logic behind allowing nema5 plug into a nema5 outlet that has no egc? is it literally to stop people from breaking off the egc pin, or having to go buy a cheater? if so that is a user problem, and all you have done is remove the needed egc from the cord by having a no egc nema5.

by the logic of others, you can wire the whole place w/o any egc wire as long as OCPD's are gfi type ??? well then, looks like a ez way to just about be even on $$ costs while at the same time provide safety everywhere, right? Xlbs of copper vs gfi ocpd costs?

 

[mbrooke]

i am not following your logic. from your view the egc pin on the device is very very important, but then you provide a nema 5 w/o egc for this device to plug into? isnt the egc on the device very very important and should be used only on ckt's that have egc?

i never said breaking off the pin was a good idea, a cheater would be preferred.

i just cant follow the logic some have proposed. you want to allow a 3pin corded appliance to plug into a no egc nema 5? why? isnt the egc pin on that appliance there for a reason? if it wasnt needed they would have used nema 1 polarized plug, right? a 2pin plug is also less $$.

nema 1 = nema 5 w/ no egc

so your logic is what exactly?

It is important. Very important. But the world we live in is not perfect and must take into account the past. There are perhaps millions of homes with 2 wire circuits. There are also millions of 3 prong consumer products flooding the market. People want to be able to use these appliances and will make them fit regardless. It is simply not practical to re-wire that many homes- so the next best solution is to use a device that mimics an EGC. The GFCI is simply the next best step to having nothing at all.

NEC 110.3B ???
ok, does anyone read the instructions of the nema 5's you are installing? i cant seem to find any Leviton instructions that say "gnd/green/bare wire optional".



care to explain the logic behind allowing nema5 plug into a nema5 outlet that has no egc? is it literally to stop people from breaking off the egc pin, or having to go buy a cheater? if so that is a user problem, and all you have done is remove the needed egc from the cord by having a no egc nema5.

Its to stop users from having nothing at all. A GFCI is safe alternative that deters botlegging and cheaters both of which are far more dangerous.

by the logic of others, you can wire the whole place w/o any egc wire as long as OCPD's are gfi type ??? well then, looks like a ez way to just about be even on $$ costs while at the same time provide safety everywhere, right? Xlbs of copper vs gfi ocpd costs?

The code does not allow such in a new instlation. An EGC is genenrally better than a GFCI. But when you have nothing at all, the GFCI is a life saver. Litterally.

 

[FionaZuppa]

The code does not allow such in a new installation. An EGC is genenerally better than a GFCI. But when you have nothing at all, the GFCI is a life saver. Litterally.

right, i already said that, use nema 1's with gfci ocpd's = safe for any 2pin or 3pin w/ cheater or 3pin that has egc pin broken off.

the difference is, "i have a 3pin plug, o look, there's a 3pin receptacle, good to go", vs "hmmm, this 3pin plug wont fit, must be a reason why"

 

[user 100]

i am not following your logic. from your view the egc pin on the device is very very important, but then you provide a nema 5 w/o egc for this device to plug into? isnt the egc on the device very very important and should be used only on ckt's that have egc?

i never said breaking off the pin was a good idea, a cheater would be preferred.

i just cant follow the logic some have proposed. you want to allow a 3pin corded appliance to plug into a no egc nema 5? why? isnt the egc pin on that appliance there for a reason? if it wasnt needed they would have used nema 1 polarized plug, right? a 2pin plug is also less $$.

nema 1 = nema 5 w/ no egc

so your logic is what exactly?

NEC 110.3B ???
ok, does anyone read the instructions of the nema 5's you are installing? i cant seem to find any Leviton instructions that say "gnd/green/bare wire optional".



care to explain the logic behind allowing nema5 plug into a nema5 outlet that has no egc? is it literally to stop people from breaking off the egc pin, or having to go buy a cheater? if so that is a user problem, and all you have done is remove the needed egc from the cord by having a no egc nema5.

by the logic of others, you can wire the whole place w/o any egc wire as long as OCPD's are gfi type ??? well then, looks like a ez way to just about be even on $$ costs while at the same time provide safety everywhere, right? Xlbs of copper vs gfi ocpd costs?

right, i already said that, use nema 1's with gfci ocpd's = safe for any 2pin or 3pin w/ cheater or 3pin that has egc pin broken off.

the difference is, "i have a 3pin plug, o look, there's a 3pin receptacle, good to go", vs "hmmm, this 3pin plug wont fit, must be a reason why"

Fiona, you know full well the purpose of a gfci, how a gfci functions, and the logic behind the 406 gfci allowance for legacy 2w ckts- we have had this discussion w/ you almost verbatim in prior threads, a couple of which stretched out to over 100 posts iirc. And if you don't legitimately understand it after all that, then you're not going to.

Its either that or you're playing word games to irritate the membership of the forum.

IMO, this thread has been hijacked and has wandered well beyond the OPs original question and is no longer helpful to him.:thumbsdown:

 

[mbrooke]

right, i already said that, use nema 1's with gfci ocpd's = safe for any 2pin or 3pin w/ cheater or 3pin that has egc pin broken off.

the difference is, "i have a 3pin plug, o look, there's a 3pin receptacle, good to go", vs "hmmm, this 3pin plug wont fit, must be a reason why"

And what if that person says "good to go"? There is absolutely nothing wrong in the user being protected. Now, if you had to block the ground pin, then the code would not be allowing a GFCI in the first place. 100% of the time the user will be forced to use a cheater and be unprotected. Don't view this as the person outsmarting themselves, view it as an imperfect solution to a problem the CMPs wishes did not exist but does (that being 2 wire circuits).

 

[kwired]

i am not following your logic. from your view the egc pin on the device is very very important, but then you provide a nema 5 w/o egc for this device to plug into? isnt the egc on the device very very important and should be used only on ckt's that have egc?

i never said breaking off the pin was a good idea, a cheater would be preferred.

i just cant follow the logic some have proposed. you want to allow a 3pin corded appliance to plug into a no egc nema 5? why? isnt the egc pin on that appliance there for a reason? if it wasnt needed they would have used nema 1 polarized plug, right? a 2pin plug is also less $$.

nema 1 = nema 5 w/ no egc

so your logic is what exactly?

NEC 110.3B ???
ok, does anyone read the instructions of the nema 5's you are installing? i cant seem to find any Leviton instructions that say "gnd/green/bare wire optional".



care to explain the logic behind allowing nema5 plug into a nema5 outlet that has no egc? is it literally to stop people from breaking off the egc pin, or having to go buy a cheater? if so that is a user problem, and all you have done is remove the needed egc from the cord by having a no egc nema5.

by the logic of others, you can wire the whole place w/o any egc wire as long as OCPD's are gfi type ??? well then, looks like a ez way to just about be even on $$ costs while at the same time provide safety everywhere, right? Xlbs of copper vs gfi ocpd costs?

Appliances with a two wire cord is allowed by listing of that appliance, that is not on us as installers one bit.

As installers we can't install non grounding receptacles as a general rule, but do have some exceptions for dealing with replacing an existing non grounding receptacle. Seems more logical to me to install a grounding receptacle without an actual EGC and to GFCI protect it then to encourage users to break off grounding pins on the cord. Sure you haven't really changed anything if there is no EGC present, but if they move that appliance to another location that does have an EGC present that broken off pin on their cord doesn't do anything at the new location.

 

[FionaZuppa]

Appliances with a two wire cord is allowed by listing of that appliance, that is not on us as installers one bit.

As installers we can't install non grounding receptacles as a general rule, but do have some exceptions for dealing with replacing an existing non grounding receptacle. Seems more logical to me to install a grounding receptacle without an actual EGC and to GFCI protect it then to encourage users to break off grounding pins on the cord. Sure you haven't really changed anything if there is no EGC present, but if they move that appliance to another location that does have an EGC present that broken off pin on their cord doesn't do anything at the new location.

again, the logic is not adding up. the appliance is designed with egc pin and gets listing approval that way, which in my mind tells me it is designed to be used with a grounded nema5 (US 120v), but now you say NEC creates an exception to get around design and listings so that people stop breaking off their egc pin on cords? this logic is just making sense to me.

ok, now let me ask, has there been a boat load of incidents of a 3pin cord having its egc pin broken off and used as-is and something happens, shock, fire, xyz ???

with the NEC verbiage written as-is the exception almost contradicts the requirements that all new wiring use 2CCC+egc. If a 2wire nema5 is absolutely safe w/o egc (must be gfi protected) and you allow 3pin plugs to use that, then why is a new home that is all 2wire (gfi protected) not acceptable?

all this talk about hazards. i can name many hazards that NEC does not address, but the same 'ol argument comes back, "well, it doesnt really happen that often so they dont address it".

lets take the new hazard created by allowing nema5 on 2wire ckt. the panel is a spaghetti mess, Joe the electrician comes in and replaces a nema1 with nema5 recept and replaces ocpd with a gfi one. 2yrs later the outlet keeps failing so Larry the neighbor comes and sees a nema5, he finds the breaker in the panel but the breaker keeps tripping, after some testing he determines the breaker is faulty and gives the owner two options, replace with a new gfi breaker or a std breaker because the gfi is more expensive. owner says go with the less expensive item. the potential hazard is now real because Larry didnt realize the nema5 was a 2wire only, all those fancy stickys fell off 1.5yrs prior, all he saw was a black wire attaching to a breaker. certainly wasnt the right way to diagnose or assess the issue, but Larry is not an electrician.

so in essence, if the NEC code writers are writing to prevent not-that-often "potential hazards" then they better stop writing the words as if such words are only read by certified/licensed electricians. most locales allow owner to do their own work, etc.

from my view, 2wire ckts should stay on nema1's an ocpd's should be gfi versions, or if supported a 3wire gfi recept installed to feed the nema1's.

cheers. enjoy fixing that "potential hazard" that comes from breaking off egc pins.

 

[kwired]

again, the logic is not adding up. the appliance is designed with egc pin and gets listing approval that way, which in my mind tells me it is designed to be used with a grounded nema5 (US 120v), but now you say NEC creates an exception to get around design and listings so that people stop breaking off their egc pin on cords? this logic is just making sense to me.

ok, now let me ask, has there been a boat load of incidents of a 3pin cord having its egc pin broken off and used as-is and something happens, shock, fire, xyz ???

with the NEC verbiage written as-is the exception almost contradicts the requirements that all new wiring use 2CCC+egc. If a 2wire nema5 is absolutely safe w/o egc (must be gfi protected) and you allow 3pin plugs to use that, then why is a new home that is all 2wire (gfi protected) not acceptable?

all this talk about hazards. i can name many hazards that NEC does not address, but the same 'ol argument comes back, "well, it doesnt really happen that often so they dont address it".

lets take the new hazard created by allowing nema5 on 2wire ckt. the panel is a spaghetti mess, Joe the electrician comes in and replaces a nema1 with nema5 recept and replaces ocpd with a gfi one. 2yrs later the outlet keeps failing so Larry the neighbor comes and sees a nema5, he finds the breaker in the panel but the breaker keeps tripping, after some testing he determines the breaker is faulty and gives the owner two options, replace with a new gfi breaker or a std breaker because the gfi is more expensive. owner says go with the less expensive item. the potential hazard is now real because Larry didnt realize the nema5 was a 2wire only, all those fancy stickys fell off 1.5yrs prior, all he saw was a black wire attaching to a breaker. certainly wasnt the right way to diagnose or assess the issue, but Larry is not an electrician.

so in essence, if the NEC code writers are writing to prevent not-that-often "potential hazards" then they better stop writing the words as if such words are only read by certified/licensed electricians. most locales allow owner to do their own work, etc.

from my view, 2wire ckts should stay on nema1's an ocpd's should be gfi versions, or if supported a 3wire gfi recept installed to feed the nema1's.

cheers. enjoy fixing that "potential hazard" that comes from breaking off egc pins.

You can certainly submit public input to change the NEC to the way you see fit, might be too late for getting anything changed in 2020.

I don't agree with everything that is in the NEC either.

If Joe the electrician did his work to NEC and Larry the neighbor comes sometime later and doesn't know what he is doing, that is not Joe the electrician's problem. Larry could have just as easily come in and tapped a 14 AWG conductor to the 50 amp range circuit to fix that non working receptacle couldn't he? And still not provided an EGC. If it "works" when all done it must be ok, right?

 

[user 100]

again, the logic is not adding up. the appliance is designed with egc pin and gets listing approval that way, which in my mind tells me it is designed to be used with a grounded nema5 (US 120v), but now you say NEC creates an exception to get around design and listings so that people stop breaking off their egc pin on cords? this logic is just making sense to me.

The code came up with the gfci allowance for old non egc ckts as a compromise and you cannot rewire millions of old houses with those ckts- as you have been told repeatedly

]ok, now let me ask, has there been a boat load of incidents of a 3pin cord having its egc pin broken off and used as-is and something happens, shock, fire, xyz ???

There has been more than enough to justify gfci protection being a good idea on old 2w ckts, lets just leave it at that.

with the NEC verbiage written as-is the exception almost contradicts the requirements that all new wiring use 2CCC+egc. If a 2wire nema5 is absolutely safe w/o egc (must be gfi protected) and you allow 3pin plugs to use that, then why is a new home that is all 2wire (gfi protected) not acceptable?

You know the purpose of an egc and why its mandated everywhere in dwellings. If you really feel that there is an issue or hazards that have not been addressed then put in a code proposal

lets take the new hazard created by allowing nema5 on 2wire ckt. the panel is a spaghetti mess, Joe the electrician comes in and replaces a nema1 with nema5 recept and replaces ocpd with a gfi one. 2yrs later the outlet keeps failing so Larry the neighbor comes and sees a nema5, he finds the breaker in the panel but the breaker keeps tripping, after some testing he determines the breaker is faulty and gives the owner two options, replace with a new gfi breaker or a std breaker because the gfi is more expensive. owner says go with the less expensive item. the potential hazard is now real because Larry didnt realize the nema5 was a 2wire only, all those fancy stickys fell off 1.5yrs prior, all he saw was a black wire attaching to a breaker. certainly wasnt the right way to diagnose or assess the issue, but Larry is not an electrician.

No kidding?So you are saying that someone could hire a trunk slammer that could come behind us and change something and make a sitch more dangerous? Color me shocked!!!

The same cheapo HO could have not hired us to begin with.... and let the hack only swap out the old 2w recs with 3w and leave a reg brkr in the first place...

Have fun babysitting millions of installations to make sure they remain code compliant

so in essence, if the NEC code writers are writing to prevent not-that-often "potential hazards" then they better stop writing the words as if such words are only read by certified/licensed electricians......

^^^^^

This is deliberately inflammatory rhetoric.

 

[kwired]

Originally Posted by FionaZuppa
so in essence, if the NEC code writers are writing to prevent not-that-often "potential hazards" then they better stop writing the words as if such words are only read by certified/licensed electricians......

Even certified/licensed electricians have trouble figuring out what some of the code is saying at times.

Code making panels have made changes in the past only to find out the wording selected was not being interpreted the way they intended in many instances, forcing them to make more wording changes for the next cycle.

Once you get used to using NEC it does get a little easier to understand. If you wanted it to be even more difficult to understand put some attorney's on the CMP's and let them choose final wording when a change is to be made. If they did that we would have deadline for PI's for 2026 NEC needing to be submitted about now.

 

[JFletcher]

Originally Posted by FionaZuppa
so in essence, if the NEC code writers are writing to prevent not-that-often "potential hazards" then they better stop writing the words as if such words are only read by certified/licensed electricians......

Even certified/licensed electricians have trouble figuring out what some of the code is saying at times.

Code making panels have made changes in the past only to find out the wording selected was not being interpreted the way they intended in many instances, forcing them to make more wording changes for the next cycle.

Once you get used to using NEC it does get a little easier to understand. If you wanted it to be even more difficult to understand put some attorney's on the CMP's and let them choose final wording when a change is to be made. If they did that we would have deadline for PI's for 2026 NEC needing to be submitted about now.

No thank you, I dont want to buy a trailer to haul around the 2020 NEC.

 

[ActionDave]

The original question was about where to get more stickers, that has been answered. Thanks everyone for sharing.