GFCI protection for recess shower light?
- Thread starter mendownunder
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2023
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
Re: GFCI protection for recess shower light?
I originally said to put the stupid -strike that- I mean highly ethically required listed GFI on the thing in the first place.
My poke was, gotcha, common practice versus a listing in 16th-inch high lettering buried in the "ok bulbs to use" label on the can. Is a fridge outlet accessible or not? Why doesn't a Halo have 16th inch high requests for GFI protection? It's just funny. I'm serious-it's in the fine print, and I'd imagine I'm one of few at my shop, or the supply house we get them from, to notice it. Scott right now would argue tooth and nail even Capri's don't say it, for Pete's sake. I'm sure he's hung more shower cans than I have!
I understand that everyone who bothers to speak their mind in this forum stands behind their work, be it in an inspection role or installation role. I did not mean to offend anyone in any way. The mention of the Great Fridge Debate was merely to cast light on the fact that in the end, we will continue to do what we have been doing (because we feel that it is safe and correct) until someone (who would probably be an inspector) credibly calls it into question. Obviously GFI protection in a bathroom rates higher on the priority scale than whether to put a fridge outlet behind or to the side of the fridge...
[ December 04, 2004, 04:59 PM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]
C'mon, you've got to see the humor in this.
I originally said to put the stupid -strike that- I mean highly ethically required listed GFI on the thing in the first place.
My poke was, gotcha, common practice versus a listing in 16th-inch high lettering buried in the "ok bulbs to use" label on the can. Is a fridge outlet accessible or not? Why doesn't a Halo have 16th inch high requests for GFI protection? It's just funny. I'm serious-it's in the fine print, and I'd imagine I'm one of few at my shop, or the supply house we get them from, to notice it. Scott right now would argue tooth and nail even Capri's don't say it, for Pete's sake. I'm sure he's hung more shower cans than I have!
I understand that everyone who bothers to speak their mind in this forum stands behind their work, be it in an inspection role or installation role. I did not mean to offend anyone in any way. The mention of the Great Fridge Debate was merely to cast light on the fact that in the end, we will continue to do what we have been doing (because we feel that it is safe and correct) until someone (who would probably be an inspector) credibly calls it into question. Obviously GFI protection in a bathroom rates higher on the priority scale than whether to put a fridge outlet behind or to the side of the fridge...
[ December 04, 2004, 04:59 PM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: GFCI protection for recess shower light?
You found a rare post of mine, I doubt you could find another 'gotcha'.
I did have a pretty good laugh when I read my own words coming back at me.
Bob
George I think you just nailed it, this is an NEC site. We take the code pretty serious when we are talking about it's application at least I do.Originally posted by georgestolz:
I guess I should expect shock on a code-based, upright website, but you know where I'm coming from here, right?
You found a rare post of mine, I doubt you could find another 'gotcha'.
I did have a pretty good laugh when I read my own words coming back at me. Bob
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2023
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
Re: GFCI protection for recess shower light?
I thought that statement was a little inflammatory, so I deleted it and edited my post a little while you were typing that.
For the record, I originally wrote that, folks...
I'm glad you got a laugh, because I (good-heartedly) thought it was funny!
I thought that statement was a little inflammatory, so I deleted it and edited my post a little while you were typing that.
For the record, I originally wrote that, folks...
I'm glad you got a laugh, because I (good-heartedly) thought it was funny!
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: GFCI protection for recess shower light?
I did not take your post badly at all, I left the door wide open, shame on me.
Bob
Life is to short not to be able to laugh at yourself once in a while.Originally posted by georgestolz:
I'm glad you got a laugh, because I (good-heartedly) thought it was funny!
I did not take your post badly at all, I left the door wide open, shame on me.
Bob
mendownunder
Member
Re: GFCI protection for recess shower light?
Gentlemen....thankyou again for your input...but I do have to agree that inspectors have to be "shown the light" when they are wrong (or when they have no valid reason in the code!) So ...I will do as the inspector says...then...I'll bean him!! Also...George...the luminaries in the closet...the recess can light....wouldn't it be considered incandesent....so the 12" rule would apply?
Gentlemen....thankyou again for your input...but I do have to agree that inspectors have to be "shown the light" when they are wrong (or when they have no valid reason in the code!) So ...I will do as the inspector says...then...I'll bean him!! Also...George...the luminaries in the closet...the recess can light....wouldn't it be considered incandesent....so the 12" rule would apply?
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2023
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
Re: GFCI protection for recess shower light?
Yep. And I hope that hypothetical closet is pretty big, or it'd look pretty odd, wouldn't it?
Yep. And I hope that hypothetical closet is pretty big, or it'd look pretty odd, wouldn't it?
mendownunder
Member
Re: GFCI protection for recess shower light?
boy did I stir up a hornets nest!! heh heh ... But this is good! It proves that there are some code issues that are NOT CLEAR CUT! (and therefore ya shouldn't be cited!) I really enjoy ya'll input (and humor!)... Dave...aka (mendownunder)
boy did I stir up a hornets nest!! heh heh ... But this is good! It proves that there are some code issues that are NOT CLEAR CUT! (and therefore ya shouldn't be cited!) I really enjoy ya'll input (and humor!)... Dave...aka (mendownunder)
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2023
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
Re: GFCI protection for recess shower light?
We're all passionate about this stuff, or we wouldn't be here.
What it comes down to in this case is really, what is the GFI doing? 210.8 is called, "G.F. Protection for Personnel." In this case, it would be during relamping, I'd imagine. If I'm naked soaking wet, I'm not going to change a bulb on an energized light. If the person in question might try, protect it. Why not?
We're all passionate about this stuff, or we wouldn't be here.
What it comes down to in this case is really, what is the GFI doing? 210.8 is called, "G.F. Protection for Personnel." In this case, it would be during relamping, I'd imagine. If I'm naked soaking wet, I'm not going to change a bulb on an energized light. If the person in question might try, protect it. Why not?
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
- Occupation
- Massachusetts Master Electrician, one man show.
Re: GFCI protection for recess shower light?
To me this is very clear cut. I have never come across any reason to gfci a shower light. The NEC does not require it, the cans I use do not require it. I have never used Capri cans so I can't speak to that. If they require it you should be doing it. As for the receptacle behind a fridge, I see nothing that prohibits that, and have not been convinced otherwise. Now for crazy inspectors, anyone who reads my posts knows I will challenge an inspector when warranted, they make mistakes. I actually think that it is essential that this is done. This helps us all in the long run. The days of "I want it that way" are long gone as far as I am concerned. I would not hesitate, and have in the past, gone above an inspectors head to get a problem solved. Think about it, job is complete, final inspection, inspector says do this, you say ok I'll just do it to make him happy. Now you have to return to the job, (Travel time), setup your tools, (more time), add a gfci circuit or rewire what you have already done, (more time possible damage to building finish), use materials ($omeone has to buy them), clean up. Who pays for this?
To me this is very clear cut. I have never come across any reason to gfci a shower light. The NEC does not require it, the cans I use do not require it. I have never used Capri cans so I can't speak to that. If they require it you should be doing it. As for the receptacle behind a fridge, I see nothing that prohibits that, and have not been convinced otherwise. Now for crazy inspectors, anyone who reads my posts knows I will challenge an inspector when warranted, they make mistakes. I actually think that it is essential that this is done. This helps us all in the long run. The days of "I want it that way" are long gone as far as I am concerned. I would not hesitate, and have in the past, gone above an inspectors head to get a problem solved. Think about it, job is complete, final inspection, inspector says do this, you say ok I'll just do it to make him happy. Now you have to return to the job, (Travel time), setup your tools, (more time), add a gfci circuit or rewire what you have already done, (more time possible damage to building finish), use materials ($omeone has to buy them), clean up. Who pays for this?
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
- Occupation
- Massachusetts Master Electrician, one man show.
Re: GFCI protection for recess shower light?
By the way good to see George is paying attention huh Bob?
By the way good to see George is paying attention huh Bob?
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
- Occupation
- Massachusetts Master Electrician, one man show.
Re: GFCI protection for recess shower light?
And my wife thinks we are all just computer geeks wasting away on nerdy message boards!
physis
Senior Member
Re: GFCI protection for recess shower light?
I'm with you Scott. I'll bet most inspectors who have been challenged and shown to be wrong wont duplicate the error. The individual most likely beleived they were correct. It's not necessarily easy to to find a diplomatic way to assert your correctness but I agree it's probably better that it's done.
Redo a correct installation?
If he wants to pay for it to be built his way he can talk to the property owner and the contracter and if his proposal is accepted I'll do my best to incorperate it into my schedule so that the change doesn't hold up the other work!
I'm with you Scott. I'll bet most inspectors who have been challenged and shown to be wrong wont duplicate the error. The individual most likely beleived they were correct. It's not necessarily easy to to find a diplomatic way to assert your correctness but I agree it's probably better that it's done.
Redo a correct installation?
If he wants to pay for it to be built his way he can talk to the property owner and the contracter and if his proposal is accepted I'll do my best to incorperate it into my schedule so that the change doesn't hold up the other work!
physis
Senior Member
Re: GFCI protection for recess shower light?
I have the same problem. In my case the girl just refuses to beleive that what we're actually doing is improving the world by preventing the terrible situations that most certainly would occur if not for our participation in the decision making process before anything is actually done that might lead to an unintentionally unsafe installation or application of the electrical code.
[ December 05, 2004, 01:02 AM: Message edited by: physis ]
Scott,And my wife thinks we are all just computer geeks wasting away on nerdy message boards!
I have the same problem. In my case the girl just refuses to beleive that what we're actually doing is improving the world by preventing the terrible situations that most certainly would occur if not for our participation in the decision making process before anything is actually done that might lead to an unintentionally unsafe installation or application of the electrical code.
[ December 05, 2004, 01:02 AM: Message edited by: physis ]
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2023
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
Re: GFCI protection for recess shower light?
Relates to a funny story: in a town nearby I was working on a 16-plex, walked with the inspector, a nice old guy named Jim. The 16-plex slowed down, so I went a few streets down to help out with a house. The guy there was griping about Jim's inspections--I guess Jim liked to see Disposal/Dishwasher circuits in #12. (Fortunately on the 16-plex, this was required on the plans, so I didn't have this fight with Jim.) Instead of the more polite persuasive respectful argument you'd normally have with a man in his sixties, this other guy got pretty hostile. "Man, you got Colorado Inspections, Greeley Inp's, Evans Insp's, then you got 'Jim Code.' Are you gonna pay to install that?" I passed 16's without a sweat, being friendly. The other guy couldn't pass a house the first try for the first, probably eight houses.
When I think of "arguing" with the inspector, that's what I visualize first. I assert my correctness with diplomacy, like you describe. I just imagine arguments becoming like what I just described. In Dave's case, I figure, hey, it sounds like this guy don't get along, since nobody has ever required a GFI'ed can and this inspector decided to start on Dave's watch.
Ya'mean?
Not to sound like I'm contradicting myself here, but absolutely. I probably just have a lower threshold for giving in than you guys.Originally posted by physis:
I'm with you Scott. I'll bet most inspectors who have been challenged and shown to be wrong wont duplicate the error. The individual most likely beleived they were correct. It's not necessarily easy to to find a diplomatic way to assert your correctness but I agree it's probably better that it's done.
Redo a correct installation?
If he wants to pay for it to be built his way he can talk to the property owner and the contracter and if his proposal is accepted I'll do my best to incorperate it into my schedule so that the change doesn't hold up the other work!
Relates to a funny story: in a town nearby I was working on a 16-plex, walked with the inspector, a nice old guy named Jim. The 16-plex slowed down, so I went a few streets down to help out with a house. The guy there was griping about Jim's inspections--I guess Jim liked to see Disposal/Dishwasher circuits in #12. (Fortunately on the 16-plex, this was required on the plans, so I didn't have this fight with Jim.) Instead of the more polite persuasive respectful argument you'd normally have with a man in his sixties, this other guy got pretty hostile. "Man, you got Colorado Inspections, Greeley Inp's, Evans Insp's, then you got 'Jim Code.' Are you gonna pay to install that?" I passed 16's without a sweat, being friendly. The other guy couldn't pass a house the first try for the first, probably eight houses.
When I think of "arguing" with the inspector, that's what I visualize first. I assert my correctness with diplomacy, like you describe. I just imagine arguments becoming like what I just described. In Dave's case, I figure, hey, it sounds like this guy don't get along, since nobody has ever required a GFI'ed can and this inspector decided to start on Dave's watch.
Ya'mean?
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2023
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
Re: GFCI protection for recess shower light?
Uh, if the mental picture of me...you see where this is going....And my wife thinks we are all just computer geeks wasting away on nerdy message boards!
I have the same problem. In my case the girl just refuses to beleive that what we're actually doing is improving the world by preventing the terrible situations that most certainly would occur if not for our participation in the decision making process before anything is actually done that might lead to an unintentionally unsafe installation or application of the electrical code.
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
- Occupation
- Massachusetts Master Electrician, one man show.
Re: GFCI protection for recess shower light?
George, old man Jim was wrong. Perhaps ripping in to the guy is not the right approach but that does not make him anymore correct. If he was enforcing the code properly there would not have been a problem. If he was busting the guys chops after that because he was embarrased that he made a mistake maybe a little nudge of the unfinished second floor would strighten him out. Uh, did I say that out loud.
[ December 05, 2004, 12:04 PM: Message edited by: electricmanscott ]
George, old man Jim was wrong. Perhaps ripping in to the guy is not the right approach but that does not make him anymore correct. If he was enforcing the code properly there would not have been a problem. If he was busting the guys chops after that because he was embarrased that he made a mistake maybe a little nudge of the unfinished second floor would strighten him out.
Uh, did I say that out loud.[ December 05, 2004, 12:04 PM: Message edited by: electricmanscott ]
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2023
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
Re: GFCI protection for recess shower light?
True 'nuff. He knew it wasn't code, in his defense. He never failed a house I know of due to that-I know he would persuade a person under the guise that he might fail one for it, but I doubted he'd follow through. Ole Jim was wrong, but he knew where he stood.
Seems like just when I feel confident in my knowledge of the code, some local jurisdiction passes superfluous BS like that, that doesn't belong. If you bounce from town to town like I have been, it gets old real quick. It's on the books, so you have to abide. You get an argument all prepared, only to find out that it's "code" in Peoria. Jeez. You can understand a white flag under those circumstances, right?
True 'nuff. He knew it wasn't code, in his defense. He never failed a house I know of due to that-I know he would persuade a person under the guise that he might fail one for it, but I doubted he'd follow through. Ole Jim was wrong, but he knew where he stood.
Seems like just when I feel confident in my knowledge of the code, some local jurisdiction passes superfluous BS like that, that doesn't belong. If you bounce from town to town like I have been, it gets old real quick. It's on the books, so you have to abide. You get an argument all prepared, only to find out that it's "code" in Peoria. Jeez. You can understand a white flag under those circumstances, right?
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