We were required to have the receps located on the backside of the kitchen bar (living room side) to be gfci protected, I don't terribly disagree just curious your opinions. The receps are not in the kitchen, not supplying countertops, etc. A specific code reference or interpretation form one of you guys would be great, just looking for some feedback, thanks.
GFCI protection?
- Thread starter justin
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: GFCI protection?
I don't know what you mean by the backside of the kitchen bar. Is this a wet bar that is in the living room. If so, then 210.8(A)(7) requires a GFCI for any receptacle with 6 feet of the wet bar sink.
The other thing that comes to mind is an open wall area above the kitchen countertop, that leads from the kitchen to the LR. If you could set an appliance on the kitchen counter and plug it into a receptacle in the LR side, then an Inspector might use 210.8(A)(6) to require GFCI.
If it's not one of these two situations, then please describe it more clearly.
I don't know what you mean by the backside of the kitchen bar. Is this a wet bar that is in the living room. If so, then 210.8(A)(7) requires a GFCI for any receptacle with 6 feet of the wet bar sink.
The other thing that comes to mind is an open wall area above the kitchen countertop, that leads from the kitchen to the LR. If you could set an appliance on the kitchen counter and plug it into a receptacle in the LR side, then an Inspector might use 210.8(A)(6) to require GFCI.
If it's not one of these two situations, then please describe it more clearly.
rcarroll
Senior Member
- Location
- Fort Collins, Colorado
Re: GFCI protection?
I say GFI not required. 2005 NEC 210.8(A)(6)
I say GFI not required. 2005 NEC 210.8(A)(6)
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
- Occupation
- Massachusetts Master Electrician, one man show.
Re: GFCI protection?
Justin, it might be better to ask whoever told you to do this for a code reference. From your description it's not required.
Justin, it might be better to ask whoever told you to do this for a code reference. From your description it's not required.
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Re: GFCI protection?
That's what we like about the code: the same article both requires and doesn't require something to be done.
Re: GFCI protection?
this bar basically seperates the kitchen form the LR. The receps are below the bar top LR side. IMO the kitchen counter top serves the kitchen and the appliances, these receps are too low for a 2' cord to reach them and IMO the bar top is used in the LR not in the kitchen.
this bar basically seperates the kitchen form the LR. The receps are below the bar top LR side. IMO the kitchen counter top serves the kitchen and the appliances, these receps are too low for a 2' cord to reach them and IMO the bar top is used in the LR not in the kitchen.
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
Re: GFCI protection?
I agree with rcarroll. If the receptacle is installed to serve the adjacent room's wall space requirement, then GFI is not required unless the receptacle happens to be within 6' of the sink.
(In the '02) (A)(6) has the phrase "to serve countertop surfaces." If there are receptacles on the countertop, serving those surfaces, there's no reason to believe that the receptacle on the other side of the wall is serving those spaces.
210.52(C)(5) would prohibit the idea that a receptacle on the other side, a foot AFF, could "serve the countertop."
I agree with rcarroll. If the receptacle is installed to serve the adjacent room's wall space requirement, then GFI is not required unless the receptacle happens to be within 6' of the sink.
(In the '02) (A)(6) has the phrase "to serve countertop surfaces." If there are receptacles on the countertop, serving those surfaces, there's no reason to believe that the receptacle on the other side of the wall is serving those spaces.
210.52(C)(5) would prohibit the idea that a receptacle on the other side, a foot AFF, could "serve the countertop."
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
Re: GFCI protection?
Is there a sink within 6'?
Is there a sink within 6'?
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: GFCI protection?
Not at all. That article requires something to be done. What is debatable is whether or not the article applies to a particular installation.
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: GFCI protection?
Most importantly, are the receptacles you are talking about, the ones in the LR that serve the "bar," separate from the receptacles that are required to be located along the wall?
I still don't understand the situation. In what sense is this a "bar"? As George and I have both asked, is there a sink? Is there a cabinet to store glasses and bottles? Is this just a countertop that is open to both the kitchen and the LR? Can the cook in the kitchen and the bartender in the LR reach across something and shake hands? Can you set an item on a horizontal surface in one room and plug it into a receptacle outlet in the other room, without running the cord through a doorway?
Most importantly, are the receptacles you are talking about, the ones in the LR that serve the "bar," separate from the receptacles that are required to be located along the wall?
Re: GFCI protection?
There is a knee wall seperating the kitchen form the LR. There is a bar top running the entire length of the knee wall. Approx 6" below the bar top is the kitchen counter top of course on the kitchen side. Yes there is a sink within six feet if you are measuring through the knee wall. For example you may have a bathroom sink that is within 6' of a receptacle in an adjacent room if you're measuring through the wall. I am trying to make this as clear as possible but it's turning out to be more difficult than I originally thought, I will try and get a photo.
These receps are there to meet code requirements, The "bar" runs the entire length, there is no "window" or partitions or anything just a bar top above the kitchen counter tops, as to sit at and eat dinner or something from the living room side, the receps are 18" AFF LR side below the raised bar down by your feet on the LR side.
[ December 21, 2005, 02:12 PM: Message edited by: justin ]
There is a knee wall seperating the kitchen form the LR. There is a bar top running the entire length of the knee wall. Approx 6" below the bar top is the kitchen counter top of course on the kitchen side. Yes there is a sink within six feet if you are measuring through the knee wall. For example you may have a bathroom sink that is within 6' of a receptacle in an adjacent room if you're measuring through the wall. I am trying to make this as clear as possible but it's turning out to be more difficult than I originally thought, I will try and get a photo.
These receps are there to meet code requirements, The "bar" runs the entire length, there is no "window" or partitions or anything just a bar top above the kitchen counter tops, as to sit at and eat dinner or something from the living room side, the receps are 18" AFF LR side below the raised bar down by your feet on the LR side.
[ December 21, 2005, 02:12 PM: Message edited by: justin ]
Re: GFCI protection?
just to muddy the water a bit more. in this area, if I were a bar top which extended out into the LR (designed for bar stools, etc., we don'
t count it as a "knee wall". No outlets required.,
just to muddy the water a bit more. in this area, if I were a bar top which extended out into the LR (designed for bar stools, etc., we don'
t count it as a "knee wall". No outlets required.,
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: GFCI protection?
OK. I think I understand now. The receptacles in question are the ones that are required to be on every wall over 2 feet wide. They are close to the floor, and not close to the bar surface. There is no "wet bar sink" in the LR. If you were to plug an appliance into any of these receptacles, then pass the appliance through the opening, and try to set it in the sink, you would require the appliance to have a cord longer than six feet cord.
Do I have that description right? If so, then no GFCI is required.
However, suppose you are sitting at the bar, and you have a coffee pot on the bar surface. Suppose it is plugged into a receptacle in the LR side. Suppose the coffee pot's cord is 6 feet long. Finally, suppose that if you accidentally bump the coffee pot, it could fall into the kitchen sink on the other side of the wall, without pulling its own cord our of the receptacle. If that can happen, then I would want that receptacle to have GFCI protection. Nevertheless, I don't think 210.8 would require it to have GFCI protection.
OK. I think I understand now. The receptacles in question are the ones that are required to be on every wall over 2 feet wide. They are close to the floor, and not close to the bar surface. There is no "wet bar sink" in the LR. If you were to plug an appliance into any of these receptacles, then pass the appliance through the opening, and try to set it in the sink, you would require the appliance to have a cord longer than six feet cord.
Do I have that description right? If so, then no GFCI is required.
However, suppose you are sitting at the bar, and you have a coffee pot on the bar surface. Suppose it is plugged into a receptacle in the LR side. Suppose the coffee pot's cord is 6 feet long. Finally, suppose that if you accidentally bump the coffee pot, it could fall into the kitchen sink on the other side of the wall, without pulling its own cord our of the receptacle. If that can happen, then I would want that receptacle to have GFCI protection. Nevertheless, I don't think 210.8 would require it to have GFCI protection.
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
Re: GFCI protection?
Here's the short story. If you can plug an appliance with a 6' cord into the outlet in question, and drop the appliance in the sink, GFI protect it.
Tricky, isn't it?
Here's the short story. If you can plug an appliance with a 6' cord into the outlet in question, and drop the appliance in the sink, GFI protect it.
Re: GFCI protection?
While we're at it let's suppose I am flying on a magic carpet and a blue elephant passes by...I am only kidding! I "suppose" anything could happen, I am just looking for any type of explanation for receptacles in the LR at "ground level" on the opposite side of a kitchen counter to be GFCI protected. Like I originally posted, I don't completely disagree but we do a lot of houses and I am trying to determine a standard with some type of logic and somewhat clear interpretation of the NEC instead of trying to anticipate each individual inspectors determination, that can be expensive, if I have to trouble shoot a circuit that is tripping because a vacuum cleaner is always being plugged into a GFCI circuit in the LR or something, not that that would necessarily happen, but suppose... anyway, thanks for the input.
[ December 21, 2005, 10:03 PM: Message edited by: justin ]
While we're at it let's suppose I am flying on a magic carpet and a blue elephant passes by...I am only kidding! I "suppose" anything could happen, I am just looking for any type of explanation for receptacles in the LR at "ground level" on the opposite side of a kitchen counter to be GFCI protected. Like I originally posted, I don't completely disagree but we do a lot of houses and I am trying to determine a standard with some type of logic and somewhat clear interpretation of the NEC instead of trying to anticipate each individual inspectors determination, that can be expensive, if I have to trouble shoot a circuit that is tripping because a vacuum cleaner is always being plugged into a GFCI circuit in the LR or something, not that that would necessarily happen, but suppose... anyway, thanks for the input.
[ December 21, 2005, 10:03 PM: Message edited by: justin ]
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
Re: GFCI protection?
Didn't I give you that explanation in my last post?
rcarroll
Senior Member
- Location
- Fort Collins, Colorado
Re: GFCI protection?
I'm still sticking with my first response. The outlets you describe on the living room side, IMO, do not serve the counter top & do not have to be GFI protected. I consider the sink to be a kitchen sink & not a wet bar sink, so outlets within 6' of the sink don't have to be GFI as well.
I'm still sticking with my first response. The outlets you describe on the living room side, IMO, do not serve the counter top & do not have to be GFI protected. I consider the sink to be a kitchen sink & not a wet bar sink, so outlets within 6' of the sink don't have to be GFI as well.
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
Re: GFCI protection?
Will it need GFCI protection?
I hope this answers your question with code references provided.
[ December 22, 2005, 10:12 AM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]
Most have danced around this question without addressing it. I shall try to give code references that would apply and let you make up your own mind.
A receptacle would be required in this bar should its total length be more than six feet.
Will it need GFCI protection?
Will this receptacle that is installed serve the counter top?
If this receptacle does not fall between 20 inches above or 12 inches below the countertop then it is not required to be GFCI protected.
I hope this answers your question with code references provided.
[ December 22, 2005, 10:12 AM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: GFCI protection?
I agree, and have said essentially the same thing. However, to be clear, I submit that if the receptacle is near the floor in the LR side, then giving it GFCI protection is a design choice (and a good choice), but it is not an NEC requirement. Since the AHJ seems to be requiring GFCI in this case, I think it is worth making that point clear.
Re: GFCI protection?
210.8(6) 05' NEC. Kitchens "not a wet bar" Where the receptacles are installed to serve the "countertop" receptacles are required to be protected by GFCI. We see this all of time. Key word is "serve counter tops" 6' rule does not apply, not a "wet Bar"
210.8(6) 05' NEC. Kitchens "not a wet bar" Where the receptacles are installed to serve the "countertop" receptacles are required to be protected by GFCI. We see this all of time. Key word is "serve counter tops" 6' rule does not apply, not a "wet Bar"
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